对话雷佩特和凯特谈VD和钙和矿物质代谢

之前在WinAtLife 播客有雷皮博士，实际上是下载次数最多的。所以又把他请回来讨论维生素 D、钙和矿物质代谢。

这里面有很多很好的信息！雷皮博士在谈到维生素 D 的大辩论时提供了很多清晰的信息。那么，应该补充维生素D吗？不应该吗？关于维生素 D 和代谢健康，还应该知道什么？

提醒一下，维生素 D 有很多名字，这个播客中提到最多的三个是：

胆钙化醇，也称为 D3（食物或补剂中的成分）
“储存D”，也称为骨化二醇（25OHD羟基胆钙化醇）
“活性D”，也称为骨化三醇（1,25D）

雷皮博士使用 25OHD 羟基胆钙化醇（储存VD）和 1,25D（活性VD）的术语（译文已转为骨化二醇和骨化三醇）

在这一集中，我们谈论…

VD的用途
VD 是如何代谢和储存的
多少 VD 太多了？
活性VD和储存 VD的区别
“储存 VD” 骨化二醇可以有活性吗？
活性 VD (骨化三醇1,25D) 升高是好事吗？
补充VD 会抑制免疫系统吗？
VD“受体”理论——对吗？
血液中储存VD (骨化二醇25OHD) 水平是否正确？
最佳储存VD 水平是多少？
VD 与钙的关系
了解甲状旁腺激素（PTH）的重要性
除了钙和VD 还能影响 PTH
组织钙化的原因
了解钙-镁的联系
什么比例（如果有）最适合矿物质？
了解头发组织矿物质分析？准确吗？

https://www.winatlifepodcast.com.au/727056/8723474-vitamin-d-calcium-and-mineral-metabolism-with-dr-ray-peat-and-kate-deering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur9F7THGBLg

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Rv41137Px/

雷皮(00:00:05)：

我认为这是胆钙化醇包括骨化二醇（25 羟基形式）与骨化三醇（1,25-二羟基）之间的情况。它们的关系非常类似于当甲状腺达到这个水平时发生的情况，实际甲状腺激素，身体增加了 TSH（促甲状腺激素），据说是一种反应，但使事情正常化。但事实上，TSH 本身是一种刺激物，会随着 TSH 升高而产生甲减的不良症状。如果黄体酮缺乏，黄体酮的缺乏是一个问题，但事实上，当黄体酮低时，身体会增加促黄体生成素，而促黄体生成素会促炎并产生退行性症状。每当基本功能激素或物质低时，身体就会进入应激反应，同时试图纠正缺陷，正在打开部分例如骨化三醇（1,25-二羟基D）或促黄体激素，或促甲状腺激素，在调整过程中，会产生许多危险的毒副作用。对于骨化三醇（1,25-羟基D），这些不良副作用包括肥胖和骨质疏松症。

旁白 (00:01:29)：

欢迎来到 WinAtLife 播客，我们在这里分享您需要了解的有关恢复代谢的一切信息。因此，您可以摆脱限制性饮食，打造您喜爱的身体和生活。

基蒂 (00:01:41)：

我是NuStrength 的联合创始人基蒂，也是本集的主持人。今天，我们的好朋友凯特·迪林加入了我们，凯特是《如何治愈代谢》一书的作者。对于那些听播客的人，你会知道凯特是谁。如果你还没有读过她的书，我强烈建议你读一读。但今天，雷皮博士也加入了我们的行列。我们从几个月前和他一起做的播客中得到了很好的反馈。所以我们想我们会再次邀请他，谈谈补充VD的问题。

凯特·迪林 (00:02:21)：

是的。所以我们从每个人那里得到了30个问题，我们想讨论这些问题。我有点希望人们在听这个播客时考虑一下，因为VD补剂服用不服用之间存在着如此大的争议。您需要了解每个论点的观点。我们已经意识到，如果你反对VD补剂，你会认为有机体可能钙是坏的，如果你高度钙化，你需要减少钙，从而减少VD. 如果你通过那个角度看，那是有道理的。然而，在生物能量观点或促代谢观点中，我们对钙的看法完全不同。我们看到钙的代谢能力很强。如果有人钙化，通常是因为他们没有获得足够的钙。并且容易增加甲状旁腺激素 (PTH) 催乳素以从骨骼中吸收钙，从而导致钙化。因此，我们实际上希望从饮食中摄取更多钙，因此VD将有助于帮助我们减少钙化。

凯特 (00:03:29)：

所以我认为在您收听此播客时考虑这些事情很重要。再说一次，我们不是来告诉你应该怎么和接受一切，是自己决定的，但最终我认为这很好地解释了为什么VD补剂并不像许多人想象的那么糟糕。

基蒂 (00:03:47)：太棒了。谢谢，凯特。我们将直接进入它。你好，雷皮博士和凯特·迪林。我们之前在播客上有雷皮博士，我只是告诉他我们从中得到了多少很棒的反馈。这是我们在 WinAtLife 播客上下载次数最多的播客，每个人都说这些信息非常有价值，而且非常容易理解。雷皮博士，非常感谢参与播客。

雷皮(00:04:19)：

是的。我只是音响系统有问题。你能听到我吗？

基蒂 (00:04:24)：

是的。我们可以听到你完美的声音。显然每个人都知道凯特·迪林。她的播客已经播放了一百万次。我们总是有一个笑话，应该是基蒂和凯特的表演。凯特，《如何治愈代谢》一书的作者。所以我们只想做一个关于补充VD的播客。不是吗，凯特？因为我认为这方面有很多混乱。

凯特 (00:04:44)：

是的。基蒂和我经常交流，我知道在社区中关于是否应该补充，谁应该补充，何时应该补充或者是否有其他东西可以做与补充相比，存在很大的讨论。因此，雷皮博士非常友好地来到这提供一些清晰的信息。我要问他 7000个问题，我限制在大约30个。所以我们认为24小时播客可能不是一个好主意。我们将尽我们所能，使其尽可能清晰易懂。

基蒂 (00:05:20)：

太棒了。好吧，让我们陷入困境。你有问题吗？还是我应该问第一个问题？

凯特 (00:05:24)：

继续第一个。

基蒂 (00:05:25)：

好的。好的。我来开始。雷皮博士，你能解释一下D3在体内是如何利用的吗？它的目的是什么？它是一种维生素还是一种激素？

雷皮(00:05:39)：

一百年来，最优秀的研究人员刚刚开始提出这些问题。人们将其视为钙调节剂、骨骼生成剂、牙齿生成剂等。他们对钙调节的想法非常有限。当意识到钙参与每一种可能的细胞反应时，无处不在，存在于所有生物中，而且是一个关键的调节剂。如果VD主要是钙调节剂，那么这说明VD活性领域与整个生命问题一样广泛和复杂。所以现在VD研究中发生的事情，主要是有一些人开始意识到真正的问题是什么。

雷皮(00:06:56)：

所以这个领域非常开放，并且随着真正有趣的事情发生而不断扩大。例如，当你观察时，从进化上看，鱼实际上并不太依赖VD。在饥饿的鱼身上进行的一些实验，完全是为了VD，其中的一些出现了脊柱缺陷，但有些没有。生活在海洋中的矿物质非常丰富，恰巧即使鱼类一般VD含量极高，但研究者并没有太注意。VD缺乏的鱼很难治疗，而大部分鱼类代谢正在摆脱VD。主要从所吃的食物中积累，浮游生物，主要是动物浮游动物。所以这主要是鱼的废物。

雷皮(00:08:24)：

如果想到洞穴盲鱼，无法获得阳光，甚至无法获得阳光下的浮游生物。尽管如此，还是能设法以某种方式拥有骨头并生存等等。显然是在洞穴，通常是水中的碳酸溶解石灰石的结果，洞穴水中的矿物质通常非常丰富，尤其是钙。因此，它们是不含VD[音频不清晰 00:09:18] 的一个例子，只与钙相处，而不是VD。

基蒂 (00:09:27)：

真的很快，你是说VD实际上可以在没有阳光的情况下产生？似乎高矿物质含量对VD的生产非常重要？

雷皮(00:09:41)：

不是。洞穴鱼似乎表明，如果有机体含有大量钙，则并不真正需要VD，而对各种淡水鱼和海水鱼的实验表明，它们对VD的需求非常有限。丰富的钙使其处理了整个VD问题，主要是作为食用浮游生物的废物，任何暴露在阳光下的胆固醇都会转化为胆钙化醇。如果我们吃了含有胆钙化醇的物质，如果服用VD补剂胶囊，当在阳光下时，胆固醇就会暴露出来。紫外线是将我们的胆固醇转化为胆钙化醇的全部功劳。但鱼类实验表明，白炽灯泡可以激活胆固醇向胆钙化醇的转化，甚至将刺激物注入皮肤也可以使胆固醇转化为VD前体或胆钙化醇。因此，VD前体或胆钙化醇的产生似乎是一种防御机制。胆钙化醇本身具有一系列保护性抗压力、抗氧化、抗辐射、保护性防御过程。

基蒂 (00:12:03)：

所以只是为了听众，你能基本上让他们知道，补充 VD基本上是胆钙化醇吗？

雷皮(00:12:13)：

是的。胆钙化醇是VD前体，与鱼吃的和从鱼中取出的东西相同。如果想到那些经常在阳光下晒太阳的人，他们会自行将胆固醇转化为胆钙化醇。他们不需要任何环境，但是搬到北方时，唯一能生存多季节的方法就是开始吃一些仍然在阳光下并仍在产生胆钙化醇的生物。所以要么住在海岸边吃鱼，要么吃在阳光下晒过的动物。因此，当您全年都在阳光下暴晒时，理论上您可以成为一名素食主义者，而不会出现VD缺乏症的风险。

基蒂 (00:13:37)：

所以总结一下，如果食用其他富含VD的食物，比如奶制品呢？这也会支持吗？

雷皮(00:13:48)：

是的。牛在阳光下。因此，它们产生的物质完全相同，即鱼通过在阳光下或通过吃在阳光下的藻类或在阳光下显示浮游生物而产生的物质。

基蒂 (00:14:05)：

好的。那么你是说任何真正受到阳光照射的动物、肉类或食品都会为人提供某种VD？

雷皮(00:14:15)：

是的。对。除了健康的人，在进入血液之后，作为胆钙化醇，这对肝脏在骨化三醇的一系列保护作用。这产生了我们知道在血液中测量的VD。这就是一些人所说的VD储存形式，但这并没有多大意义，除了肝脏确实结合了足够的骨化二醇持续几个月。其中一些存在于蛋白质中，例如钙合蛋白（Calbindin），被动地溶解在脂溶性相当大的范围内，以中等量溶解在脂肪组织中，浓度与在血液中发现的浓度相同。因此，数值越大，肝脏两侧的脂肪组织中储存的脂肪就越多。

雷皮(00:16:06)：

因此，肝脏有病的人可能会摄入足够的普通胆钙化醇，但骨化二醇的水平非常低。当半活性VD含量低或非常低时，尤其是如果钙摄入量有限，那么肾脏就会被激活。传统的说法是，在骨化二醇或钙的效率压力下，肾脏会通过激活肾脏中的一种大的羟化酶来产生骨化三醇。但实际上，在发炎或受压的组织中，具有制造骨化三醇的能力，旧教科书说这种情况只发生在肾脏中，但实际上任何受压组织似乎都能做到。例如，癌细胞不太擅长【音频不清晰】

基蒂(00:17:59)：

好的。所以我要倒回去一秒。因为很多信息，试着总结一下，以便人们能够理解，因为我们知道的术语太多了，在 VD世界中，显然有 D3 或胆钙化醇，这是最初补剂形式，然后确实会转换为骨化二醇或骨化三醇或所适合的储存形式，如果可以的话，也许我们会使用该术语，因为我认为这可能最容易理解。不是说那是VD的唯一形式，但那是VD在语言中所知道的，然后确实转换成活性VD，我想你刚才解释的是在压力下储存VD转换成活性VD。并不是说活性形式是活性代谢物和所有好东西所在的地方，而是当组织或系统处于压力下时，实际上会转化。对吗？

雷皮(00:19:01)：

是的。我认为这是胆钙化醇或骨化二醇与骨化三醇之间的情况，这种关系非常类似于甲状腺水平、实际甲状腺激素、身体增加 TSH（促甲状腺激素）时所发生的情况一种反应，使其正常化。但事实上，TSH本身是一种刺激物，会随着 TSH升高和黄体酮缺乏而产生不良的甲减症状。没有黄体酮是一个问题，但事实上，当黄体酮低时，身体会增加黄体生成素，而黄体生成素会促炎，并随时产生退行性症状，基础功能性激素或物质低，身体进入紧急反应，同时试图纠正缺陷，

雷皮(00:20:52)：

对于骨化三醇，这些不良副作用包括肥胖和骨质疏松症。例如，当条件足够紧张时，甲状旁腺激素会增加，这是打开一种所谓的活性VD的羟化酶的主要信号，而被甲状旁腺激素和随之而来的骨化三醇，然后开始分解骨骼并关闭氧化代谢，阻断电子传递链并为乳酸产生、传播炎症、变性和激活脂肪储存创造条件，创造脂肪组织和储存能量在里面。

基蒂 (00:22:48)：

好的。所以基本上你说的是骨化三醇（VD活性形式），很多人称之为 VD，基本上是易发性的，会引起所有炎症。高水平的骨化三醇不好。那时会出现很多炎症反应、体重增加、乳酸升高以及如此高的 PTH 会开启它。因此，唯一可以降低甲状旁腺激素的物质，唯一可以直接降低甲状旁腺激素的物质是钙和骨化二醇（储存VD），或者只是服用 VD 补剂或阳光或其他任何东西。对吗？

雷皮(00:23:26)：

是的。还有很多支持性的东西，比如糖，保持身体能量，防止脂肪代谢。饮食中过多脂肪的压力会抑制糖代谢，并再次开启所有这些促炎过程。

基蒂 (00:23:52)：

所以基本上是让身体远离压力。因此，升高的骨化三醇只是身体在压力下可以适应的众多反应之一。

雷皮(00:24:05)：

对。

基蒂 (00:24:05)：

这只是第一个问题。我要讨论下一个问题，从阳光中获取VD与从补剂中获取VD有何不同？代谢方式是否不同，或者在某个时间点处于相同的空间，从何处获取并不重要？

雷皮(00:24:34)：

可以从阳光中获得其他好的效果，但基本上就VD而言，我认为与阳光的作用相同。得到了可见光，这是激活氧化代谢以支持良好VD的另一个东西。

基蒂 (00:25:00)：

明白了。很明显，阳光还有很多其他好处。我想其中一件事是，通常大多数人不会因为阳光过多而过量服用VD，对吗？我们的身体有一种先天的反应，一旦我们有足够的东西，如果我们在阳光下，就会停止深层生产。对吗？

雷皮(00:25:20)：

是的。例如，当有足够的VD时，您会开始变得更好。您可以通过开始产生黑色素来更有效地保护自己，但VD本身具有抗辐射作用。所以你甚至没有注意到自己几乎没有晒伤。当组织中有足够的胆钙化醇时，就像一个抗辐射因素。

基蒂 (00:25:55)：

好的。所以我肯定有人说他们不能再晒黑了。当出去晒太阳时，只会晒伤。那么这是否表明他们是低 VD？

雷皮(00:26:07)：

是的。在我生命的大部分时间里，我很容易晒伤。只是开一辆封闭的汽车，穿过明亮风景，我的脸会变得鲜红，我的鼻子会发红，或是从车窗的侧面暴露几个小时。这不是很大剂量的紫外线，但我对它非常敏感。在我开始补充VD后，我可以在墨西哥 7-8,000英尺海拔高度的户外度过几个小时，接受超强辐射，甚至鼻子都不会红。

基蒂 (00:27:03)：

你认为这是为什么？为什么您认为无法从阳光中获得所需的阳光或VD，而这些对您有用？

雷皮(00:27:10)：

我显然没有在阳光下停留足够长的时间，不太够长。一旦获得了VD的保护水平，就很容易继续达到非常高的水平，VD具有全方位的保护性抗压力作用，但一旦缺乏就很容易晒伤的事实往往会导致让人避开阳光。

基蒂 (00:27:48)：

我明白了。所以本质上这就像这个星球上你需要建立的其他一切一样，所以这是一种训练机制，可以建立你的VD水平和抵御阳光的能力。如果缓慢而稳定地做，就会起作用，会和实际服用补剂一样有效吗？

雷皮(00:28:07)：

是的。

基蒂 (00:28:07)：

好的。我想回到你谈论骨化二醇（ 25 D，也称为储存VD）的时候，我认为在很多其他社区谈论它时，他们说它是非活性，而这种非活性只是在身体的系统中不能有任何类型的响应，只有骨化三醇（1, 25 D）实际上有任何类型的响应，我知道你肯定告诉我骨化二醇确实有活性形式，这就是一种实际上在我们体内产生所有好的东西。你能告诉我们更多细节吗？

雷皮(00:28:46)：

是的。决定性的实验表明，VD受体应该对骨化三醇有反应的受体敲除实验，但如果敲除该受体，骨化二醇具有所有相同的功能，因此受体和当有钙和骨化二醇以及用一种羟化酶进行敲除实验时，骨化三醇是必不可少的，两个类似的结果。

基蒂 (00:29:33)：

所以，这可以追溯到凌宁的理论，这不仅仅是关于这个受体的想法，我知道他们谈论了很多关于 VDR（抗氧化剂中的VD受体）。VD 补剂，基本上你说的是和那没关系？

雷皮(00:29:55)：

是的，整个细胞，整个生物体，实际上都是真正的受体，因为每个受体都对环境敏感，如果去掉所谓的特定蛋白质，那就是受体仍然，你有整个背景，事实证明受体就像一个额外的杠杆点，可以快速、轻松地改变生理机能，但只要你在整个生物体中有一个活细胞，那么特定的受体只是故事的一部分，而不是全貌。

基蒂 (00:30:47)：

所以本质上，细胞所处的环境在细胞如何对某些物质做出反应方面起着巨大的作用？

雷皮(00:30:55)：

是的，细胞总是将自己定向到它的环境，当你产生一个没有受体或一种羟化酶的生物体时，其他东西会接管并填补缺乏那种特殊东西。

基蒂 (00:31:18)：

我明白了，所以我想就上下环境而言，很高兴知道细胞会根据所处的环境做出不同的反应，如果身体更健康，反应会有所不同，如果身体不健康，如果处于炎症状态，而没有给它足够的糖分或足够多的其他东西，那么细胞的反应就会非常不同，而不是得到适当支持、甲状腺功能良好等等。

雷皮(00:31:45)：

是的。这是细胞的高能量状态，是稳定的，基本上处于休息和准备状态。如果能量较低，那么任何轻微的干扰都会使事情变得更糟，但是，当整个系统充满活力且营养充足时，细胞会更有方向性并准备好应对其环境。

基蒂 (00:32:17)：

有问题。那么认为VD补剂实际上具有免疫抑制作用的信念又如何呢？所以，有些人报告说他们服用VD补剂感觉更好，然后一种理论是，你感觉更好的原因是因为正在抑制，免疫系统正在发生什么，只是抑制了骨化三醇让你感觉更好？

雷皮(00:32:45)：

是的。我认为这是其中的一部分。部分混淆是免疫系统的定义。人们谈论要刺激免疫系统，但我认为这是我们最不想做的事情。免疫系统意味着无论对破坏性威胁做什么伤害，然后我们说免疫系统已经被激活，但是一个非常健康的有机体，例如含有大量钙和VD，甚至没有注意到，不会因病原体的存在而受到伤害。所以免疫系统不会被真正健康的生物体激活，例如，98%真正健康的人，不要介意感染 COVID 病毒，当细胞处于稳定、高度通电状态。这只是临界低能量，

基蒂 (00:34:35)：

是的，所以我要转过身说，有一些研究人员正在利用非常低的VD状态来解决自身免疫问题，他们说如果他们将 VD 状态抑制到远低于12，实际上在人们从自身免疫问题中恢复时得到了回应，对此有什么解释吗？

雷皮(00:35:03)：

那就是特雷弗·马歇尔（Trevor Marshall）一拨人。

基蒂 (00:35:07)：

就是他们，对。

雷皮(00:35:17)：

我不喜欢称之为推理。这是生物学和工程师的工程隐喻的应用，例如，从硬接线和开关以及电流等方面进行思考，因此受体和先天免疫过程的想法，以及所有这些都非常适合以工程为导向。如果不是很多别的话，特雷弗·马歇尔的所有想法都基于他所谓的计算机建模。

雷皮(00:36:10)：

2006 年，他提到奥美沙坦和类似的血管紧张素受体抑制剂，称之为VD受体拮抗剂，但在 2017 年，他称之为VD受体激动剂，并说可以恢复VD受体功能。他们凭经验是用温和剂量的米诺环素做的，恰好是一种非常有效的抗炎剂，以及抗生素或抗菌剂，而沙坦类、奥美沙坦或氯沙坦，这些都是非常基本的有效抗炎剂。因此，当谈论自身免疫性疾病和退行性疾病时，抗炎药米诺环素和奥美沙坦都会减轻症状。我认为它们对VD受体没有任何特别的拮抗作用，或接受或恢复作用。

基蒂 (00:37:47)：

所以，特雷弗·马歇尔使用的，我认为 Benicar 治疗他的很多病人，这是一种血管紧张素受体拮抗剂血压药物，但你说的是它可能不是抑制VD产生了影响。可能只是这些药物产生了影响？

雷皮(00:38:09)：

是的，我认为他根本没有提出任何证据表明这与VD受体有关。原来是基于所谓的计算机建模，没有实验，真的，然后他把坚定的抑制剂者变成了激动剂。事实上，无论是类风湿性关节炎还是 COVID 感染，沙坦类药物通常都是非常强大的抗炎保护剂，是一种通用的多用途抗炎保护物质。

基蒂 (00:39:03)：

是的，我记得你说氯沙坦用于 COVID 并帮助人们度过 COVID，所以我想其他这些也能起作用，非常有趣。所以再次翻转，可以储存VD状态是生病的迹象，这意味着，如果某人的 VD 低，这是否意味着生病了，或者这是否意味着，或者另一个论点是，是否真的需要更多的 VD ，还是只是表明可能生病并且恢复健康将纠正的 VD.

雷皮(00:39:47)：

如果一个人服用大量VD补剂或接受阳光照射，但仍在循环骨化二醇，如果仍然很低，我认为这意味着有肝脏炎症问题，因为肝脏是产生骨化二醇活性形式的主要部分。我认为这个问题的大部分背景都与特雷弗·马歇尔学说有关，即细胞内存在导致疾病的神秘生物，而他的方案是最终消除这些神秘生物的方法。

基蒂 (00:40:48)：

所以，假设有人服用了相当数量的 VD 或晒太阳，并且像我说的那样，VD 水平很低，但他们的储存VD 仍然很低。那时你会推荐什么，你是说继续服用更多的 VD 还是需要看看其他的东西？

雷皮(00:41:06)：

是的。可能是炎症和肝损伤来源的全貌，但服用VD不会使问题变得更糟，就像特雷弗·马歇尔所说的那样。

基蒂 (00:41:25)：

好的，那么对于那些服用 VD 补剂的人来说，这让他们感到非常可怕怎么办？

雷皮(00:41:38)：

我听到一些人的病情迅速恶化，有人认为自己的神经系统和其他各种症状即将死亡。我查看了她的饮食和补剂，她正在补充以中链甘油三酯为基础的东西，当她停止所有含有 MCT 的东西时，她的所有症状都消失了。有一项动物研究发现，例如，花生过敏是在 MCT 存在的情况下产生的，会影响肠道内壁的免疫系统，从而破坏身体抵抗抗原和过敏原的能力，并使身体容易出现食物过敏症状。

基蒂 (00:42:49)：

这很有趣。我的意思是，我通常推荐的一种补剂是 Carlson's，是在 MCT 油中的，所以你是说要避免使用 MCT 油中的那些，或者，如果引起刺激，可能是油，可能没问题。可以加入 MCT 油中吗？你知道有没有一个是好的，而不是在那些东西中。

雷皮(00:43:12)：

很多人从中受益，但我认为当他们使用以橄榄油为基础的VD时，一些强烈的不良反应就会停止发生，有几家公司生产纯橄榄油和滴剂或胶囊形式的VD产品。

基蒂 (00:43:35)：

好的。你是否碰巧知道有哪些……

雷皮(00:43:39)：

我不记得了

基蒂 (00:43:40)：

……可以参考？

雷皮(00:43:41)：

不，我不记得了，看看价格吧。成本差别很大。

基蒂 (00:43:47)：

好的，如果目前正在服用VD补剂并出现不良反应，那么可以尝试使用橄榄油中的VD，而且还……

雷皮(00:43:56)：

我想是的。

基蒂 (00:43:57)：

……导致低 VD 状态。好的。怎么样，让我们稍微谈谈钙和 VD的沟通方式以及如何相互交织。如果有人的 VD低，会很快回去，这是否也意味着其他事情，这意味着，我当然读过一些研究表明，仅服用镁可以提高储存VD水平。那么，有人在服用 VD补剂之前实际探索其他途径、查看进入VD代谢的一些辅助因素是否有意义？

雷皮(00:44:50)：

是的，例如，在饮食中加入牛奶和奶酪是一个很好的第一步 ，看看是否可能是钙、镁缺乏症，因为这两者都有激活和稳定的保护作用，例如潜在的镇静作用，对炎症的镇静作用。因此，镁或钙的缺乏会导致激活骨化三醇的炎症状况。

基蒂 (00:45:40)：

好的，所以只要钙或镁含量低就会引发炎症反应，这会拉低骨化二醇，并提高骨化三醇值。对吗？

雷皮(00:45:55)：

是的。

基蒂 (00:45:56)：

好的，所以这里有一个有趣的问题是高胆固醇水平和低VD状态是否相关，因为胆固醇是 VD的前体？

雷皮(00:46:11)：

是的，例如，在老年人中，皮肤中活性VD大大减少，这表明胆固醇是衰老减少VD生成的主要原因。只是没有将胆固醇置于被阳光激活的位置。

基蒂 (00:46:48)：

那么可以公平地说，服用他汀类药物或任何降低胆固醇的药物肯定会影响VD状态吗？

雷皮(00:46:58)：

是的。影响一切，包括VD状态。

基蒂 (00:47:03)：

好的，所以这肯定是值得关注的。如果胆固醇高，是否会更重要，您会先看看甲状腺功能或神经效率之类的东西吗？

雷皮(00:47:17)：

在 1930 年代到 1940年代，甲减通常是由胆固醇升高和在甲状腺切除的人体内反复试验来诊断的，[音频不清晰 00:47:38] 表明甲状腺可以可靠降低胆固醇，因为状腺会增加代谢率，这是一个非常可预测的事件。整个高胆固醇血症文化随着对甲状腺激素功能的现有知识的抑制而成长。

基蒂 (00:48:08)：

所以基本上如果有人胆固醇高，不是说需要服用甲状腺，而是要明显改善甲状腺功能，无论是为了适当的饮食还是单独减压，甚至不需要服用 VD补剂，能不能提高自己的VD状态？

雷皮(00:48:26)：

是的，甲状腺、VD和钙是密切相关的。无法将甲状腺与VD和钙代谢分开。

基蒂 (00:48:43)：

有问题。怎么样，我们真的可以为冬天储存足够的VD，这就是夏天的全部吗？基本上，对于那些显然没有很多夏季时间的人来说，他们是否能够在这些月份获得足够的 VD，以便在冬天照顾他们，或者，对于这些人来说，很明显他们是否需要服用某种补剂，或是肯定吃富含VD的食物？

雷皮(00:49:15)：

如果他们在夏天一直在阳光下，他们会够，假设他们的肝脏相当健康。肝脏将在冬季最黑暗的几个月内储存足够的，但这实际上取决于他们在夏季在户外度过的时间，以及他们的甲状腺状态和一般代谢情况，但是，这就是吃鱼肝或牛肝的原因，或者任何VD的良好来源，因为肝脏确实储存了大量的VD。

基蒂 (00:50:04)：

好的，所以继续说，你会吗，我知道你已经说了好坏，你会说鱼肝油是补充维生素的好方法吗？

雷皮(00:50:21)：

除了带有大量鱼油的。

基蒂 (00:50:26)：

是的。

雷皮(00:50:28)：

鱼油随着时间的推移会随着促雌激素作用、促炎促衰老和抗甲状腺缺陷而积聚。我认为这不是获取VD和VA 的最佳方法，但也是紧急情况下的来源，使用鱼肝油比缺乏VD更好。

基蒂 (00:50:58)：

是的，但是像牛肝或全脂牛奶这样的东西会是更好的选择。

雷皮(00:51:05)：

好多了。

基蒂 (00:51:06)：

好的，那么添加VD的牛奶怎么样，安全吗？

雷皮(00:51:16)：

乳化剂的选择，我不确定有多大的自由度，但我听说聚山梨酯 80 和聚乙二醇已被用作维生素 A 和维生素的乳化剂，因为一些人们对那些聚合物非常过敏，必须小心，如果对牛奶有过敏反应，试试无添加的牛奶，这通常意味着购买没有经过巴氏消毒的全脂牛奶，然后可以用脱脂奶以降低全脂牛奶中非常高的脂肪含量，从而获得纯正的天然牛奶。

基蒂 (00:52:15)：

是的，这是我肯定记得的一件事……在美国，我们知道所有低脂牛奶都含有 VA 和 VD添加剂，我认为没有任何添加剂不要那是低脂牛奶。我知道你喝低脂牛奶，我通常喝牛奶，比如 Straus，可以选脱脂。现在，如果我要脱脂，脂肪不是我去除了很多我想要得到的 A 和 VD吗？

雷皮(00:52:42)：

是的，但是如果奶牛健康，你只需要适量的脂肪，比如 1% 或 2% 脂肪来获取维生素。

基蒂 (00:52:51)：

好的，我知道你使用低脂牛奶。你有一个你喜欢的品牌似乎对你没问题吗？

雷皮(00:53:00)：

不。我只喝任何味道好的。一些有机牛的味道真的很糟糕，这意味着他们的奶牛吃的是我不喜欢的某种奇怪的谷物，所以我选择了口味。

基蒂 (00:53:19)：

好的，超市也允许你在那里试味道，那会很好，就像去酒厂一样，可以在购买之前先尝尝牛奶。

雷皮(00:53:29)：

那很好，但是当尝起来太糟糕时，我就不会再买了。

基蒂 (00:53:35)：

这可能是个好建议，凯特，你怎么喝牛奶？

凯特 (00:53:42)：

我们喝低脂牛奶，克雷格喜欢脱脂牛奶。因为他喝……我认为脱脂是等价的，因为你们称之为不同的东西。

基蒂 (00:53:51)：

我们称之为低脂。

凯特 (00:53:52)：

是的，你有 1%的，然后……他喝低脂的，所以他喝了很多牛奶。我喝的是低脂的，但我们这里很幸运。我们……没有强化维生素，

这边。我们没有强化维生素，这太棒了。所以是的，我们只是从我们的支持的几家当地乳制品厂获得牛奶，这真的很好。但是，我真的很同情我们所有的美国和海外客户，因为他们总是发帖说找不到没有添加维生素的低脂牛奶。

基蒂 (00:54:23)：

是的。所以我认为最重要的是可以买一个满桶的牛奶并尝试脱脂或其他的。如果味道很好而且没有任何反应，那么就是一种好牛奶。但是我发现有些人在重新引入牛奶时似乎是最简单的方法，因为是似乎能够容忍最好的方法，至少在开始时是这样。这就是我对此的一般建议。

所以，当我们测量血液中骨化二醇或骨化三醇时，是一个准确的数字，因为我总是听说有一些东西，比如雌激素和铁，这些东西在血液中的指标并不重要，因为是存在于组织中. 这是否与储存VD 的情况类似，因为组织中显然也有很多？

雷皮(00:55:19)：

不，在血液循环中，有VD结合蛋白以及血液中携带大量VD的脂质。所以脂肪组织被动地充当存储，但在一个水平上，不比血液中高多少，当在肌肉、神经等中时，没有人测量过提取这些重要组织的过程，以了解骨化二醇在细胞内。假设细胞会根据需要吸收，可能与血液水平非常相似。

基蒂 (00:56:30)：

我明白了。我想你曾经告诉过我，如果身上有大量的脂肪，身体不会在组织中储存更多的 VD。所以也许数字不会那么高。这也可能是由于肝脏问题？

雷皮(00:56:46)：

脂肪组织中的水平与血液中的浓度非常接近。因此，如果有大量相同浓度的脂肪组织，那么是的，这将起到补充肝脏中脂肪的作用。

基蒂 (00:57:07)：
我明白了。我知道了。所以让我们来谈谈储存VD 的最佳值，比如什么数值，显然有些人宣传任何超过 20 都没有任何意义。所以没有生物学原因让您超过 20。很明显，我认为您提倡更多的 40 到 60 的数值。那么您会说什么，显然，这就是您会说的，但您为什么会说这个数字需要更高？以及背后的原因。

雷皮(00:57:40)：
其中一项功能是通过将甲状旁腺激素保持在较低水平来尽可能降低骨化三醇。因此，在您的饮食中含有过量的钙和大量的骨化二醇，可以作为一种缓冲剂，对抗任何可能增加甲状旁腺激素和骨化三醇的刺激物和炎症性失能状况。

基蒂 (00:58:25)：
所以是……请继续。

雷皮(00:58:28)：
实际水平，比如改善睡眠，例如，抗晒伤，每毫升 15 纳克以上就几乎发生，60 到 70 似乎是作为安全范围缓冲以减轻压力。

基蒂 (00:58:57)：
那其他人呢？我的意思是，能不能升得太高，显然不会比那个更高，如果得到自然阳光，但如果补充补剂，我的意思是，如果达到 80 或 90，会有什么危险，还是到100？

雷皮(00:59:12)：
例如，在户外工作的救生员测得的浓度为每毫升 130 纳克或更高，并且根本没有明显的危害，但是过量服用骨化三醇，可以容易造成高钙血症、软组织钙化、骨骼脱矿和其他退行性迹象。所以只要钙摄入量和骨化二醇在这个范围内，我不知道有没有人每毫升有 200 纳克，但无论得到多少阳光照射，每毫升 150 纳克可能是健康上限，但这是保持骨化三醇的情况下，来防止甲状旁腺激素治疗退行性炎症过程。

基蒂 (01:00:35)：
所以，我的意思是，我读过的研究表明，有些健康人的骨化二醇实际上很低，骨化三醇也很低。那将是一个健康的人。不健康的人的骨化二醇升高或降低，但随后的骨化三醇非常高，就是说，如果储存VD 为 20，算健康吗？

雷皮(01:01:09)：
暂时是，我只是认为当处于较高范围时，长期前景会更好，因为实际上具有缓冲作用，超出了钙和骨化二醇的范围。让身体有机会承受一些压力，而不会破坏骨骼和动脉钙化。

基蒂 (01:01:52)：
好的。因此，对于生活中可能没有太多压力并且生活在内心的人来说，压力不是很大，完全可以有作用，但显然在当今压力很大的现代社会中，这不是一个理想的选择，可以长期保护的数值。

雷皮(01:02:10)：
是的，我想是的。

基蒂 (01:02:12)：
好的。那么让我们来谈谈VD与钙的联系。因为显然我很了解您，您想要推广的重要物质是甲状腺、钙、VD以及它们如何相互联系。您能给我简要介绍一下VD和钙以及甲状腺是如何相互影响的吗？

雷皮(01:02:37)：
保持钙结合，使其不会对细胞产生兴奋剂，当能量低或炎症高时，危险是钙变成细胞兴奋剂，激活细胞蛋白质核酸的分解，以及所有最终导致细胞死亡或功能丧失的过程的激活。VD正确功能在发挥作用，以激活将VD保持在安全状态的蛋白质。在这种情况下，维生素是钙与黄体酮和甲状腺一起作为细胞稳定剂，实际上存在严重缺陷，注射钙盐可以通过促进稳定、放松的条件起到镇痛和镇静的作用。

雷皮(01:04:17)：
仅仅是能量低下或有炎症信号就会激活不当功能，例如血管和其他软组织钙化。这就是骨化三醇成为危险的时候。骨化三醇具有大脑兴奋作用，一时看起来非常好，但正是通过使钙与细胞结构之间的关系不稳定，成为大脑兴奋剂的过程使其成为血管钙化剂。

基蒂 (01:05:13)：
所以我认为关于钙的混淆之一是，因为总是听到人们动脉和血管钙化及其组织钙化。所以人们不断被告知不需要更多的钙，一切都钙化了。您能解释一下到底发生了什么，这样我们就可以明白不要钙化，显然不是因为吃太多钙？

雷皮(01:05:41)：
不对，肾结石的情况是一样的。没有摄入足够的钙或没有获得足够的正确类型VD的人往往会患上钙肾结石。其机制似乎是在甲状旁腺激素增加醛固酮和增加整个炎症系统，血管紧张素系统被激活并且兴奋伴随着不受对抗的磷酸盐作用。如果饮食中含有过多的磷酸盐会激活钙化过程，部分原因是细胞内的直接溶解作用，但主要是通过激活甲状旁腺激素的过度产生。

雷皮(01:06:56)：
所以当谈到在饮食中获得额外的保护性钙时，这意味着饮食中磷酸盐要有所降低，因为这两种影响都会降低甲状旁腺激素和血管紧张素系统，以及肾上腺压力激素，所有这些都可以保护血管和其他软组织钙化。注射骨化三醇会产生完全相反的效果，或者过量的甲状旁腺激素激活骨化三醇会使钙从骨骼中流失，导致高钙血症，并在活细胞内产生钙和磷酸盐晶体，导致它们首先变得兴奋，过度活跃的压力产生过多的胶原蛋白，过多的一氧化氮，以及导致骨纤维硬化和钙化纤维形成的退行性损伤的整个过程。

基蒂 (01:08:38)：
所以本质上是相反的。所以不是因为摄入钙造成了问题。本质上是缺乏钙和高磷饮食会触发甲状旁腺激素从骨骼中提取钙，然后这就是造成所有钙化的根本原因。

雷皮(01:09:00)：
是的，几十年来人们都知道，骨质疏松症最严重的女性的血管钙化程度最高。

基蒂 (01:09:14)：
很明显，这就是为什么您肯定会提倡高钙磷比饮食，这本质上是高乳制品饮食和低谷物肉类饮食。这是首要原因吗？

雷皮(01:09:30)：
是的。谷物、豆类、坚果、肉类和鱼类都会在系统中产生过量的磷酸盐，从而激活甲状旁腺激素。而在夜间，只是一夜的黑暗压力，会增加甲状旁腺激素。如果测量一个患有骨质疏松症的人的尿液中的钙排出量，大部分时间，钙流失是在晨尿中，因为夜间甲状旁腺激素升高，分解骨骼，相对高钙血症，使动脉和其他组织硬化。因此，尤其是在睡前，牛奶和VD可以防止这种夜间钙的持续流失。

基蒂 (01:10:45)：
这是在睡觉之前喝牛奶和蜂蜜的另一个原因，以帮助完成这个过程。

雷皮(01:10:52)：
嗯（肯定）。

基蒂 (01:10:54)：
这就是人们早上总是那么僵硬的原因之一吗？

雷皮(01:11:00)：
是的，晚上会发生很多炎症。如果在大约一两个小时内或半夜观察所有血液变化，就会发现所有退行性应激激素都增加了游离脂肪酸，这些游离脂肪酸会中断氧化利用，从而对所有细胞产生毒性。葡萄糖、游离脂肪酸在夜间稳定上升，还有皮质醇、血清素、雌激素、血管紧张素、甲状旁腺激素，所有这些都会使身体的组织分开。

基蒂 (01:11:58)：
所以这就是我们被训练在晚上睡觉的根本原因，对吧。由于我们身体系统中发生的所有这些事情，仅仅基于黑暗，我们可能会进入压力最小的位置？

雷皮(01:12:12)：
是的。人们每 15分钟进行一次血液检测，无论是在夜间醒着还是睡觉时。如果在夜间睡得很熟，压力激素会适度增加，但当不睡觉时，黑暗的破坏性要高几倍。当不睡觉时，所有的压力激素上升得更快。因此，睡眠显然是避免这些压力的适应性反应。

基蒂 (01:12:58)：
因此，如果是轮班工人并且不得不熬夜，那么奶昔和牛奶饮料或高钙食物等可能会有所帮助，以帮助在夜间支持身体系统。

雷皮(01:13:11)：
是的。所有防止游离脂肪酸向脂肪代谢转变的物质，骨化三醇能够关闭氧化代谢，导致转变为依赖脂肪的代谢，并转变为产生乳酸的癌症代谢酸。

基蒂 (01:13:48)：
您认为医生为什么不进行骨化三醇检测？我的意思是，如果人们同时服用骨化二醇和骨化三醇，您认为这对了解自己的VD状况会更有帮助吗？

雷皮(01:14:03)：
是的。真正有用的检测是骨化二醇，未转化形式，一些医生测量骨化三醇。如果他们没有意识到这是压力的一个指标，而不是VD充足的指标，那么当甲状旁腺激素和骨化三醇增加时，这可能是VD缺乏的一个很好的指标。

基蒂 (01:14:44)：
因此，如果真想了解某人VD状态，除了骨化二醇和骨化三醇之外，您还希望通过哪些检测来真正了解所处的情况？

雷皮(01:15:03)：
我认为骨化二醇对几乎所有目标来说都是一个足够好的检测。

基蒂 (01:15:11)：
好的。所以他们甚至不需要像甲状旁腺激素一样。基本上，如果骨化二醇低，需要更多的VD或阳光，或者需要摆脱压力，或者是所有这些的组合？

雷皮(01:15:27)：
是的。有一些公司和网站说不能通过饮食或其他代谢作用降低甲状旁腺激素，如果有过多的甲状旁腺激素，必须切除甲状旁腺，但有这些力量是否在积极误导公众，断然说不能通过多吃钙和VD来降低甲状旁腺激素，但这绝对不是真的。

基蒂 (01:16:18)：
是的。我还看到研究表明，仅去除磷或吃低磷饮食就可以改善甲状旁腺激素。

雷皮(01:16:27)：
是的。在工业世界中，由于饮食中磷酸盐与钙的比例很高，这已被广泛认为是导致人口退化性疾病增加的原因。

基蒂 (01:16:47)：
是的。是的。所以这就是大多数人吃高含量的肉类、谷物、豆类、坚果的饮食，并且都避免乳制品去喝坚果奶。因此，这将是VD含量低的完美结果。

雷皮(01:17:01)：
对。

基蒂 (01:17:04)：
好的。我想回到VD是如何代谢的，并讨论参与其中的其他矿物质或营养素的其他辅助因素。当然，有很多人说如果服用VD补剂，会消耗或使用很多其他营养素，如VA或镁、钾、铜。因此，如果有人已经缺乏镁、铜和VA，那么在添加 VD补剂之前先解决这些问题是否更有意义？

雷皮(01:17:46)：
我不这么认为。同时处理所有这些实际上很重要，但VD本身是镇静抗炎过程的一部分。所以钙和镁是必不可少的，应该立即完成。但我不认为补充VD会使情况变得更糟。

基蒂 (01:18:19)：
是的。嗯，其中一个说法是如果增加VD，会增加 VA、镁尤其是VA 的燃烧率，如果已经缺乏这些，而且因为我们知道VA非常融入铁代谢，这实际上可以使铁更多地储存在组织中，或者可以使铁失调，但也知道镁参与了 3000 种其他酶促过程，通过补大量VD，我认为您是说只需要一起做这一切，但显然只是补VD而不是做所有其他的可能会造成问题的事情？

雷皮(01:19:00)：
我认为这个想法主要来自 50 或 60 年前。一些动物实验表明，如果给予大量的VB1 硫胺素，会增加代谢率，而对于其他的临界缺乏症，它会使其他缺乏症更快地出现。

基蒂 (01:19:30)：
嗯。

雷皮(01:19:30)：
但我不知道是否有任何实验表明，VD或镁或钙在很大程度上可以使身体利用从一种营养素获得的促进作用，减少对其他营养素的需求，即使添加钠或钾也可以减少对镁或钙的需求。简单地说，碱性矿物质铁具有某种相互作用的等效性，并且VA和VD确实可以协同工作，但是必须处于极端、极度缺乏的状态，然后才能看到一种缺乏导致另一种缺乏。

基蒂 (01:20:49)：
好的。所以您的意思是，即使VD代谢需要VA，如果开始补充甚至有点高剂量的 VD也不会失去其他营养素，如果其他营养素没有同时得到支持，不会丢弃其他营养素，除非极度缺乏它们。

雷皮(01:21:10)：
是的。因为VA和甲状腺有明显的相互作用，所以如果甲状腺功能处于临界状态并服用大量VA补剂，例如十万单位，甲状腺活动可能会下降，因为甲状腺激素和视黄醇在相同的蛋白质上传播。因此，这样只会将一个替换为另一个过多。但只有在极端情况下才明显。

基蒂 (01:21:57)：
我明白了。我有一个想法，然后又没了。那么我们将进入下一个问题，即人们应该服用钙补剂吗？是否有害？

雷皮(01:22:16)：
不应该，应该从食物中获取。例如，蛋壳或粉状牡蛎壳，可以将其视为食物。与其扔掉蛋壳，不如磨成粉，然后加入煎蛋卷里。大多数人都非常 [音频不清晰 01:22:49]。所以碳酸钙，我认为用作钙补剂不是问题。但是一些反离子有自己的活性。所以不要服用非常大剂量的乳酸钙或葡萄糖酸钙，例如，仅仅因为反离子可以有自己的代谢作用。

基蒂 (01:23:25)：
好的。所以服用蛋壳钙之类的食品补剂，我知道，我当然推荐，我知道您推荐，因为它实际上是一种可以安全服用的食物。您有什么办法吗？我一直读到钙与糖或VD一起吸收更好。那么将它与橙汁或食物一起服用是否明智？

雷皮(01:23:48)：
是的，是的。我认为整餐中食用这样就不会注意到任何高度纯化的物质，这些物质往往会扰乱和刺激胃，然后试试。高浓度的碳酸钙会刺激，就像浓缩形式的过多盐或糖会刺激细胞膜一样。

基蒂 (01:24:18)：
好的。因此，无论何时要服用钙补剂（希望是食物来源），请在整餐中吃，这样就可以将所有东西放在一起，因为它可能会引起刺激。

雷皮(01:24:28)：
是的。例如，当分离出主要营养素时，当肠道含有最复杂的主要营养素（例如蛋白质、脂肪和碳水）混合物时，效率最高。如果一次只吃一种成分，肠道就不会认为那是非常合适的食物。所以在吸收任何成分方面都不那么有效。肠道需要一种复杂的、自然的、某种营养素的混合物。

基蒂 (01:25:12)：
对。我认为总是有人争论碳酸钙不能很好地被吸收。您会说如果在整餐和一些糖中食用它，会吸收得更好吗？

雷皮(01:25:25)：
是的。它在胃酸存在下变成氯化钙。

基蒂 (01:25:28)：
我明白了。我知道了。好的。显然，我一直认为牛奶是一种完美的食物，因为带有所有其他辅助因素，如VA 和 VD以及镁，所有支持成分都在一起，这有什么问题吗？我觉得这就是大自然母亲的意思。所以当吃补剂之类的东西时，身体如何吸收有问题吗？我一直读到，如果摄入过多的钙，会降低钾含量，只会丢掉矿物质。那会发生吗，或者身体会弄清楚吗？

雷皮(01:26:08)：
是的。受体的想法导致了许多不必要的担忧。细胞、肠道和身体一般都非常具有适应性，并且在测试所摄入的东西方面基本上是智能的，这样就不会很容易受到干扰。

基蒂 (01:26:39)：
好的。对。因为我在周围听说，如果摄入过多的钙，会以某种方式抑制甲状腺。我认为这是因为钙会降低钾和其他矿物质的含量。我听说事实并非如此。

雷皮(01:26:58)：
是的。我认为，开始的时候，他们发现在服用钙补剂或喝牛奶的同时服用甲状腺素补剂会减慢甲状腺素的吸收。但是很多药剂师都沉迷于快速吸收的想法。但在甲状腺的情况下，例如，缓慢吸收是需要的。对于大多数营养物质，缓慢、稳定的吸收最适合身体系统进行分类和正确使用。

基蒂 (01:27:45)：
好的，完美。总是听说矿物质的某些比例。我听说过的一个特别是钙镁比率，会听到说“嘿，您需要几乎 10 倍的钙镁比。” 然后我也听说过相反的说法，其中镁应该比钙高得多。只是回到整个，回到那个受体理论……这重要吗？我们需要意识到这样的事情吗？还是我们应该只吃全食物而不用担心？

雷皮(01:28:20)：
基本上是的。身体可以整理出钙和镁之间的很大比例范围。牛奶中的钙比镁多得多。但是纯牛奶饮食，不会缺镁，因为如果从中获得足够的钙供应，牛奶中的镁就足够了。

基蒂 (01:28:55)：
好的。这让我想到了下一个问题，这样每个人都知道我们快到终点了，这非常令人兴奋。但我认为这太有趣了。我想很多人都对这种矿物质不平衡有这种想法，但这是因为他们正在使用诊断检测，比如头发矿物质、头发组织矿物质分析检测。我认为在这个检测中得到了所有这些比率，然后说“哦，看，钙含量很高，”或者是“那个东西含量很高。” 这是了解体内矿物质的一个很好的检测吗？

雷皮(01:29:28)：
不，那只是一个用什么洗发水的很好检测，在一个尘土飞扬的环境或化学污染的环境中，可以通过闻头发来判断一个人去过哪里，因为头发很容易把东西粘在一起。会把东西从水里拉出来。水中含有适量的钙，头发会结合大量的钙。但是，如果使用的是含有大量钠的软化水，那么头发将经历钠含量较高的环境，而不是钙含量较高的环境。几年前，实验者将脚趾甲与头发进行了比较，发现脚趾甲由于受到不断保护且材料比头发更厚，因此更能代表实际组织矿物质水平。但是脚趾甲仍然需要大约六个月的时间才能长到足以剪掉。所以头发很方便，如果把它夹在靠近皮肤的地方，可以得到只暴露在环境中几天的头发。但仍然只需一种硬水洗发水就能让头发充满钙或镁。

基蒂 (01:31:19)：
拔头发怎么样？如果连发根拔怎样？这会有用吗？

雷皮(01:31:26)：
是的。如果确定有最后的发根。

基蒂 (01:31:31)：
会检测到更多。仍然是准确的吗？就像我说的，如果能够使用没有被水或空气改变过的头发，那头发能很好地分析矿物质吗？

雷皮(01:31:47)：
水沿着发干流到很远的位置，所以必须只是末端的发根。

基蒂 (01:31:58)：
好的。除了撕脚趾甲，这听起来有点痛苦，实际上检查体内的矿物质之外，还有什么好的检测吗？我的意思是，血液可以接受吗？这会让人有所了解吗？

雷皮(01:32:15)：
是的。如果包括所有血细胞，这将是非常准确和可重复的，或代表矿物质含量。

基蒂 (01:32:29)：
那么这些检测具体是什么？因为这显然不是医生要做的正常检测。您说的是红细胞，有什么？

雷皮(01:32:44)：
一位化学家，将整个物质溶解在酸或碱中，并从绝对意义上测量矿物质含量。

基蒂 (01:33:01)：
您是指血液吗？

雷皮(01:33:03)：
是的。

基蒂 (01:33:03)：
可在血液中进行测量。

雷皮(01:33:05)：
是的。

基蒂 (01:33:06)：
好的。所以，但如果我想去体检，然后我想知道我的所有矿物质是什么，会不会……我的意思是，因为我可以去获取铜或镁，还是红细胞镁？我实际上会从化验室买什么？

雷皮(01:33:21)：
好吧，如果他们分离血清和细胞，将其离心等等，那么您将只测量血液的一种成分。然后您必须知道该选项如何反映身体其余部分的内容。所以如果有一个很好的标准，那么任何特定的组件都会根据身体的状况而改变。但是，如果想了解一般矿物质的一般身体状况，我认为全血匀浆将是合适的测量对象。

基蒂 (01:34:18)：
好的。我很快就有一个问题：如果某人的甲状旁腺激素过低，这意味着什么？

雷皮(01:34:29)：
我认为可能是服用了足够的VD以及钙和镁。

基蒂 (01:34:40)：
所以您基本上是说不能太低？

雷皮(01:34:43)：
是的。

基蒂 (01:34:43)：
如果低于标准数字，那么很好。

雷皮(01:34:50)：
除非他们通过手术切除甲状旁腺。如果能提供镁和VD，他们通常会非常健康，他们的睡眠也会得到改善。请记住，衰老是甲状旁腺激素的不断增加，而甲状旁腺激素每晚都会升高并加速衰老过程。因此，随着年龄的增长，情况会变得更糟并加剧问题。因此，例如甲状旁腺切除术对肾病患者的好处非常令人印象深刻。

基蒂 (01:35:49)：
嗯。所以基本上这就是解释，随着变老，每个人，不是每个人但是处于压力之下的人，当然会看到很多骨质减少、骨质疏松症或肾结石开始发生，这只是系统处于压力之下的迹象。对吗？

雷皮(01:36:06)：
我想是的。

基蒂 (01:36:09)：
好，一个关于镁的问题。您会推荐人们从哪里获得镁？您会用食物来源吗？显然有很多人使用大量的镁。镁是不是大多数人都应该服用的东西，因为我们都处于压力之下，我们每天都在失去镁？

雷皮(01:36:32)：
牛奶是一种非常丰富的来源。咖啡是稳定的来源，是少量的，但可以帮助作为牛奶的补充。橙汁也贡献适量。肉类和鱼类以及高磷酸盐食物总是含有大量的镁。

基蒂 (01:37:00)：
如果觉得镁吃得不够，您认为应该补充吗？如果应该补充，是否有您认为更好的首选镁来源？

雷皮(01:37:12)：
多年前，我用碳酸镁做实验。我曾在墨西哥用来作为重置腹泻的对策。我总是吃黑色的碳酸镁，一个医生朋友抱怨她可怕的子宫痉挛。她通常不会考虑营养补剂，但由于抽筋时的不适让她几乎无法动弹，她愿意服用一大块碳酸镁并将其咀嚼。大约五分钟后，她低头看着自己的腹部说：“我不敢相信已经好了。” 镁可以像钙一样产生几乎瞬间的效果，作为一种镇静的影响，镁可以非常快速和可靠。但麻烦的是，碳酸镁和其他镁化合物的许多制造方法，涉及可能引起过敏的污染物。很多人因使用镁补剂而出现头痛或恶心、各种类型的过敏症状。甘氨酸镁，到目前为止，我还没有听到任何严重抱怨。

基蒂 (01:39:20)：
是的。那是我更喜欢的一种。我不知道，您试过碳酸氢镁吗？

雷皮(01:39:26)：
我认识使用过并喜欢的人。

基蒂 (01:39:30)：
是的。那些似乎是，我认为最不苛刻和人们不会抱怨的。显然碳酸镁，我认为对很多人来说是一种很好的泻药。所以我认为事情开始迅速发展。我不知道是不是因为碳酸盐，还是仅仅因为碳酸盐中可能含有添加剂？

雷皮(01:39:49)：
镁本身在一定水平上，可以起到泻药的作用。如果它是消炎药，有时肠道会因炎症而麻痹，因此解痉药可以让肠道正常 [音频不清晰 01:40:13] 。

基蒂 (01:40:16)：
明白了。嗯，这就是我所有的问题。我不知道您还有什么要补充的，雷皮博士。已经有很多惊人的信息。我不知道。您认为我们希望涵盖的大部分内容都有了吗？

雷皮(01:40:35)：
是的。我不考虑其他的。

基蒂 (01:40:37)：
在一个半小时内也做得很好。我很惊讶。我本想可能需要两个半小时。

基蒂 (01:40:44)：
嗯，您知道吗，在我准备开始的时候，我开始意识到我们已经涵盖了很多其他问题。我想，“好吧，我们已经涵盖了这一点。” 我想，“好吧，我们已经介绍过了。” 这太棒了。

基蒂 (01:40:57)：
太好了，太好了。而且，当我们与 Georgie、Kayden、Matt 和 Benny 合作时，我认为人们只是有点困惑。我认为这会更容易理解，这很好。

基蒂 (01:41:12)：
我希望如此。

基蒂 (01:41:15)：
太棒了。嗯，非常感谢您，雷皮博士。我相信每个人都会和以前一样喜欢这个播客，这么多有价值的信息。非常感谢您，凯特，提出这些问题来解决所有这些彻底、超级彻底的问题。所以我想也许只是为了结束。那么我们是VD的支持者吗？

基蒂 (01:41:38)：
嗯，我认为在结束时，正如雷皮博士所说，我的意思是，我认为如果VD实际上很低，正如您所说的，那会不是要尝试的有害物质。我认为雷皮博士会同意的。我的意思是，必须服用过量才能真正产生有害影响。您会同意吗？

雷皮(01:41:59)：
是的，我从来没有听说过任何人，甚至没有研究有说骨化二醇会造成伤害。持续服用 500万个单位一段时间可能是有害的，但我从来没有见过…患有类风湿性关节炎的人每天服用 5000-10000 单位有轻微的好处，他们中的一些人已经每天达到 20000单位或更多，不仅可以完全缓解，而且往往不会复发。所以大剂量是相当一致的治疗。一旦炎症得到控制，就不需要保持如此高的剂量。

基蒂 (01:43:02)：
雷皮博士，我有一个想法，因为我确实读过研究表明人们已经接受了时间的推移。我不记得这项研究了，但确实是，他们给女性用了不同剂量的VD。我认为就像 400 、2000 和 10,000 IU，然后跟随很长时间。然后在这项研究结束时发现，服用最多 VD量的人比其他人表现出更多的骨质流失。您对为什么会发生这种情况有一些解释吗？

雷皮(01:43:38)：
不会。我必须查看研究的详细信息。我希望这不是由……… [音频不清晰 01:43:47] 完成的。

基蒂 (01:43:50)：
可能是。

雷皮(01:43:51)：
他在 2017 年发表的文章中有趣的一件事是，他不仅将 [音频不清晰 01:44:02] 维生素血管紧张素阻滞剂对VD受体的影响联系起来，而且他被指控为电子烟雾不是好东西，但他将其归咎于VD受体故障的一个因素。他建议 [音频不清晰 01:44:28] 作为一种保护大脑免受电雾影响并帮助VD受体的方法。但是，帽子上的 [音频不清晰 01:44:45] 螺纹可能有屏蔽效果，但为什么不是整个老式铝帽、铝箔帽，这是绝对的大脑屏蔽。

基蒂 (01:45:02)：
嗯，也许我们用那项研究来结束。因为有一些我有时想知道的。而且我确信研究中可能有一些东西可以解释，只是，我不知道。那太棒了。所以，是的，我认为最重要的是，如果要获得VD，那就买橄榄油。

基蒂 (01:45:21)：
是的。我们去看看。我们应该吗？我会搜索一下，看看我们是否能找到一些品牌，因为我从来没有真正了解橄榄油中的任何品牌。

基蒂 (01:45:27)：
不。我认为他们主要是 [音频不清晰 01:45:29] MCT 油，我认识的大多数人对此没有问题，但我敢肯定您说他们可以。我当然有人告诉我，他们对VD肯定有一些非常强烈的反应，他们就是不能服用。所以那可能是 MCT 油。

基蒂 (01:45:45)：
好吧，我们可以去掉Carlson's 的，然后试着找一些橄榄油。

基蒂 (01:45:50)：
当然。

基蒂 (01:45:52)：
太棒了。嗯，非常感谢您，雷皮博士。非常感谢凯特，我相信我们可能会想到另一个很棒的话题来再次讨论。

基蒂 (01:46:04)：
我希望如此。雷皮博士，很高兴和您交谈，让我在这么长的时间里接受您的大脑。我完全欣赏并享受。

雷皮(01:46:12)：
是的。谢谢您。思考这个话题很有趣。随着越来越多的研究揭示VD的真正作用，这个领域将变得越来越有趣。

基蒂 (01:46:30)：
是的，不客气。

基蒂 (01:46:33)：
太好了。非常感谢。祝大家度过愉快的一天……或者我应该说是晚上。再见。

英文

Ray Peat (00:00:05):
I think it's the situation between cholecalciferol or the 25 hydroxy form and the 1,25-dihydroxy. Their relationship is very analogous to what happens when your thyroid at this level, your actual thyroid hormone, your body increases the TSH, thyroid stimulating hormone, in supposedly a reaction, but normalizes things. But in fact, that TSH itself is an irritant and produces the bad symptoms of hypothyroidism as the TSH rises. And with a progesterone deficiency, the absence of progesterone is one problem, but the fact that when progesterone is low, your body increases the luteinizing hormone and the luteinizing hormone is pro-inflammatory and creates degenerative symptoms. Any time the basic functional hormone or material is low, the body goes into an emergency reaction in which, at the same time that it's trying to correct deficiency, it's turning on sections, such as 1,25-dihydroxy D or luteinizing hormone, or thyroid stimulating hormone, which in the process of adjusting, has this lots of dangerous toxic side effects. In the case of 1,25-hydroxy D, these unwanted side effects include obesity and osteoporosis.

Speaker 1 (00:01:29):
Welcome to the WinAtLife Podcast, a place where we share everything you need to know about restoring your metabolism. So you can break free from restrictive diets and build a body and life you love.

Kitty Blomfield (00:01:41):
I'm Kitty Blomfield, co-founder of NuStrength, and your host for this episode. And today we're joined by a good friend, Kate Deering author of “How to heal your metabolism”. For those who listen to the podcast, you'll know who Kate is. And if you haven't read her book, I highly recommend that you read it. I'll drop a link in the show notes with a discount code. So you can either buy it from us, or we can pretty much buy it anywhere. But today we're also joined by Dr. Ray Peat. We had such great feedback from the podcasts that we did with him a few months ago. So we thought we'd get him on again, to talk about vitamin D supplementation.

Kate Deering (00:02:21):
Yeah. So we got a series of 30 questions from everybody, that we want to talk about. And I kind of want people to think about when they're listening to this podcast, because there's such controversy between vitamin D supplements or to take them, to not to take them. It is you need to see the viewpoint of what each argument is coming from. And what we've realized is, if you're kind of an anti D supplement, you're viewing the organism as maybe calcium is bad, and that if you are highly calcified, that you need to reduce calcium, thus reduce vitamin D. Which if you're looking at through that lens, that would make sense. However, in the bio generic viewpoint or pro-metabolic view, we see calcium quite differently. And we see calcium is very metabolic. And if somebody is calcified, it's normally because they aren't getting enough calcium. And that easily parathyroid hormone (PTH), Prolactin, is increased to pull the calcium from the bone and that's creating the calcification. So we actually want more calcium from our diet, thus vitamin D would be supportive in helping us become less calcified.

Kate Deering (00:03:29):
So I think it's important to kind of think of those things as you're listening to this podcast. Again, we're not here to tell you what you should think, take everything in and decide for yourself, but ultimately I think it's a good explanation of why vitamin D supplements aren't as bad as many think.

Kitty Blomfield (00:03:47):
Awesome. Thanks, Kate. And we'll get straight into it. Hello, Dr. Ray Peat and Kate Deering. We've had Dr. Peat on the podcast previously, and I was just telling him how much awesome feedback we got from that. And it's the most downloaded podcasts we have on the WinAtLife Podcast, and everyone was saying the information was just so valuable and it was really easy to understand. Dr. Peat, thanks so much for doing that podcast.

Ray Peat (00:04:19):
Yeah. I just have trouble with my sound system. Can you hear me now?

Kitty Blomfield (00:04:24):
Yeah. We can hear you perfect. And obviously everyone knows Kate Deering. She's been on the podcast a million times. We always have a joke, it should be the kitty and Kate show. Kate Deering, author of “How to heal your metabolism”. So we just wanted to do a podcast about vitamin D supplementation. Didn't we, Kate? Because I think there's just a lot of confusion out there about it.

Kate Deering (00:04:44):
Yeah. Kitty and I go back and forth and I know in the community, there's a big discussion on whether you should or should not supplement, who should supplement, when you should supplement or is there other things you could possibly do versus supplement. And so Dr. Peat was very kind to come on here to offer some clarity. And I was going to ask him 7,000 questions, I've limited to about 30. So we thought maybe a 24 hour podcast wasn't going to be a good idea. We'll do the best we can, to make it as clear and easy to understand as possible.

Kitty Blomfield (00:05:20):
Awesome. All right, let's get stuck into it. You've got the question? Or should I ask the first question?

Kate Deering (00:05:24):
Go ahead for that first one.

Kitty Blomfield (00:05:25):
Okay. All right. I'll cut the ribbon. Dr. Peat, can you please explain how vitamin D3 is utilized in the body? What is its purpose? Is it a vitamin or a hormone?

Ray Peat (00:05:39):
Those are questions that the best researchers are just now starting to ask for a hundred years. People who are treating it as just a calcium regulator, just a bone builder, tooth builder and so on. And their idea of calcium regulation was very limited. When you realize that calcium is involved in every possible cell reaction, it's everywhere, in everything living, and it's a crucial regulator. If vitamin D is mainly a calcium regulator, then that says that the field of vitamin D activity is as broad and complex as a whole life question. So what's happening now in vitamin D research, is just a few dozen people mostly, starting to realize what the real issues are.

Ray Peat (00:06:56):
So that the field is very open and expanding with really interesting stuff happening. For example, when you look at it, evolutionarily, fish don't really depend very much on vitamin D. Some experiments at a starving fish, totally for vitamin D, some of them developed spinal defects, but some didn't. Living in the ocean minerals are very rich and it happens that even though fish are generally extremely high in vitamin D content, they don't pay much attention to it. It's very hard to treat a vitamin D deficient fish, and much of the fish metabolism of vitamin D is getting rid of it. They accumulated primarily from the food they eat, the plankton, mostly the animal, Zooplankton. So it's mostly a waste product for the fish.

Ray Peat (00:08:24):
And if you think of the blind cave fish, there's no way they get sunlight, or even plankton that has been in the sun. And still, they managed somehow to have bones and to be alive and so on. Apparently caves, generally being the result of carbonic acid in water desolving away limestone, cave water is generally very rich in minerals, especially calcium. So they are an example of vitamin D free [inaudible 00:09:18] that gets along with just calcium and instead of vitamin D.

Kitty Blomfield (00:09:27):
Just real quick, are you saying that vitamin D can actually be produced in a being without sunlight? And it seems that a high mineral content would be very important to the production of vitamin D?

Ray Peat (00:09:41):
No. The cave fish seems to illustrate that the organism doesn't really need a vitamin D if it has lots of calcium and experiments with various fresh and seawater fish show that they have a very limited need for it. The abundance of calcium has made them handle the whole vitamin B issue, mostly as a waste product of eating the plankton, which the cholesterol is converted to cholecalciferol by anything exposed to the sun. And if you eat the material containing cholecalciferol, it says if you're taking a vitamin D supplement capsule, when you yourself are in the sunlight, your cholesterol is exposed. Ultraviolet light gets all the credit for the conversion of our cholesterol to cholecalciferol. But fish experiments show that Ethan incandescent bulbs can activate the conversion of cholesterol to cholecalciferol and even injecting irritants into the skin can produce the conversion of cholesterol to the Pre Vitamin D or cholecalciferol. So it looks as if the production of Pre Vitamin D or cholecalciferol is a defensive mechanism. cholecalciferol itself does a whole range of protective anti-stress, antioxidant, anti radiation, protective defensive processes.

Kitty Blomfield (00:12:03):
So just for the listener, can you basically let them know, the supplemental D is essentially cholecalciferol correct?

Ray Peat (00:12:13):
Yeah. It's Pre Vitamin D, the same stuff that fish eat and that we get out of fish. If you think of people who are in the sunlight constantly, are producing their own conversion of cholesterol to cholecalciferol. They didn't need any environment, but when you move to the north, the only way to survive more than a season or so, is to start eating some organism that still is in the sun and still producing cholecalciferol. So we either have to live on the coast and eat fish, or eat animals, which are been in the sunlight. So when you have round the year sunlight exposure, then you can be a vegetarian theoretically without the risk of a Vitamin D deficiency.

Kitty Blomfield (00:13:37):
So to conclude that, what about consuming other foods that are high in vitamin D, like dairy? Would that be also supportive?

Ray Peat (00:13:48):
Yeah. The cows were in the sunlight. So they produce the same material exactly, that fish produced by being in the sunlight or by eating the algae that was in the sunlight or show a plankton that was in the sunlight.

Kitty Blomfield (00:14:05):
Okay. So are you saying that any animal or meat or food product that is actually getting sunlight would give some sort of vitamin D to a person?

Ray Peat (00:14:15):
Yeah. Right. Except the healthy person, after that gets into your blood stream, as the cholecalciferol, this on a whole range of protective effects that your liver hydroxylates it on number 25 carbon. And that produces, what we know and measure in the blood as vitamin D. That's what some people have called the storage form of vitamin D, but that doesn't really mean much, except that the liver does bind enough of the 25 hydroxy cholecalciferol to last for a few months. Some of it is found on proteins, such as Calbindin or the calcium binding protein, and it passively dissolves in, fairly fat-soluble, it dissolves into fat tissues at moderate amount, at the same concentration that you find in the bloodstream. So the bigger you are, slightly greater amount is stored in your fat tissues at the sides in your liver. That conversion to the hydroxy cholecalciferol that happens in the liver can be blocked by a liver problem.

Ray Peat (00:16:06):
So a person with a sick liver is going to have probably enough of the plain cholecalciferol, but have a very low level of the 25 hydroxy cholecalciferol. And when you're low or very low in that form of the half activated Vitamin D, especially if your calcium intake is limited, then you will activate your kidneys. The traditional story goes that under stress at efficiency of either a 25 hydroxy cholecalciferol or calcium will cause your kidneys to produce 1-hydroxy-1,25-dihydroxy-cholecalciferol by activating a big one hydroxylase enzyme in your kidneys. But in actuality, in the inflamed or stressed tissue, has that ability to make 1,25-dihydroxy-cholecalciferol the old textbooks say that happens only in the kidneys, but actually any stress tissue seems to be able to do it. Cancer cells, for example, aren't very good at the [inaudible 00:17:51] hydroxylation, which makes these so-called active vitamin D.

Kitty Blomfield (00:17:59):
Okay. So I'm going to wind it back a second. Cause that was a lot of information, just try to summarize it so that people can understand, and because there's so much terminologies we know, in the D world, there is obviously D3 or Cholecalciferol, which is the starting supplementation form, and then it does get converted into the 25 OHD or the calcitriol or what they refer to as a stored, and maybe that we'll use that term if that's okay, cause I think that's probably easiest to understand. Doesn't mean that, that's its only form, but that's what it's kind of known in the language, and then it does convert into the active D and I think what you kind of just explained was that the store D converts into the active D under stress. It's not that that is the active form is where the active metabolites and all the good stuff is, it's that it actually converts when the tissue or when the system is under stress. Is that correct?

Ray Peat (00:19:01):
Yeah. I think it's the situation between cholecalciferol or the 25 hydroxy form and the 1,25-dihydroxy, the relationship is very analogous to what happens when your thyroid level, your actual thyroid hormone, your body increases the TSH, thyroid stimulating hormone, in supposedly a reaction, but normalize things. But in fact, the TSH itself is an irritant and produces the bad, the symptoms of hypothyroidism as the TSH rises and with a progesterone deficiency. The absence of progesterone is one problem, but the fact that when progesterone is low, your body increases the luteinizing hormone and the luteinizing hormone is pro-inflammatory and creates degenerative symptoms at any time, the basic functional hormone or material is low, the body goes into an emergency reaction, which at the same time it's trying to correct the deficiency, it's turning on a substance such as 1,25-dihydroxy D or luteinizing hormone, or thyroid stimulating hormone, which in the process of adjusting has lots of dangerous toxic side effects.

Ray Peat (00:20:52):
In the case of 1,25-hydroxy D, these unwanted side effects include obesity and osteoporosis. For example, when the conditions are stressful enough, your parathyroid hormone increases, and it's the major signal for turning on the one hydroxylase enzyme that so-called activates the vitamin D and when you're dominated by parathyroid hormone and the consequential 1,25-dihydroxy D, then you start breaking down your bones and turning off your oxidative metabolism, blocking the electron transport chain and creating the conditions for lactic acid production, spreading inflammation, degeneration, and activating the storage of fat, creating fat tissue and storing energy in it. All of the emergency things are activated by the stress or inflammation that leads to turning on the parathyroid hormone and the main two things that will keep your parathyroid hormone down and under control and stop all of those degenerative processes, the main settings are, calcium and vitamin D, the 25 hydroxy form.

Kitty Blomfield (00:22:48):
Okay. So essentially what you're saying is the 1,25 or the active form, a lot of people call it a D, is basically prone and it gives all the inflammatory. High levels of 1,25- D are not good. And that's when you get a lot of the inflammatory responses, weight gain, elevated lactic acid, and so high PTH turns that on. And so the only things that are going to parathyroid hormone, the only things that can actually directly lower the parathyroid hormone are calcium and the 25 or the store D or just taking a D supplement or sunlight or whatever. Is that correct?

Ray Peat (00:23:26):
Yeah. And Lots of supportive things like sugar, keeping your energy up and preventing fat metabolism. The stress of too much fat in your diet, suppresses the sugar metabolism and again turns on all of those pro-inflammatory processes.

Kitty Blomfield (00:23:52):
So essentially keeping the body out of stress. And so the elevated 1,25-D is just one of the many responses your body can adjust to, when under stress.

Ray Peat (00:24:05):
Right.

Kitty Blomfield (00:24:05):
And that's just the first question, so we could be here for four days. That was super awesome and helpful. And I kind of goes into this next question is, how is getting vitamin D from sunlight different from getting it from a supplementation? Are they metabolized differently or is there, at some point of time, they are at the same space and it doesn't matter where you're getting them from?

Ray Peat (00:24:34):
You get other good effects from the sunlight, but basically as far as the vitamin D is concerned, I think they function identically along with the sunlight. You're getting visible light, which is another thing that activates oxidative metabolism in support of the good kind of vitamin D.

Kitty Blomfield (00:25:00):
Got you. So obviously there's a lot of other benefits of the sunlight. I guess one of the things is that, we know that usually most people won't overdose on D by getting too much sunlight, right? Our body has an innate response that will stop deep production, once we have enough, if we're in the sun. Correct?

Ray Peat (00:25:20):
Yeah. For example, you start tending better when you have enough vitamin D. You protect yourself more efficiently by starting to produce melanin pigment, but vitamin D itself has an anti-radiation effect. And so you don't even notice, you don't sunburn, nearly as much. When you have enough of the cholecalciferol in your tissues, it's like a radiation resistance factor.

Kitty Blomfield (00:25:55):
Okay. So I definitely have people say that they no longer can tan any longer. That when they go out into the sun, they just burn. So would that be a sign that they are low D?

Ray Peat (00:26:07):
Yeah. For most of my life, I was sunburn very easily. Just driving in a closed car, through a bright landscape, my face would get bright red, and I would have a shiny red nose, or from just a few hours of exposure sideways through the windows of a car. And that isn't a very big dose of ultraviolet, but I was super sensitive to it. And after I started supplementing vitamin D, I could spend hours outside in Mexico at an altitude of seven or 8,000 feet, super intense radiation and not even get a red nose.

Kitty Blomfield (00:26:59):
And why do you think that is? Why do you think that you were not able to get the needed sun-

Kitty Blomfield (00:27:03):
Why do you think that is? Why do you think that you were not able to get the needed sun or the vitamin D from the sun where that would help build up the supplementation is what worked for you?

Ray Peat (00:27:10):
I just didn't apparently stay in the sun long enough, gradually enough. Once you get the protective level of vitamin D up, then it's easy to go ahead and reach a very high level, which has the full range of protective anti stress effects but once you're deficient, the fact that you sunburn so easily tends to make you avoid the sunlight.

Kitty Blomfield (00:27:48):
I see. So it's essentially like everything else in this planet that you need to build up, so it's a training mechanism to build up your vitamin D levels and your ability to withstand sunlight. If you did it slow and steady, it would work, would it be just as effective than actually having a supplementation?

Ray Peat (00:28:07):
Yeah.

Kitty Blomfield (00:28:07):
Okay. I want to go back to when you were talking about the 25 D or the Calcidol also known as the store D and I think in a lot of the other communities that talk about it, they say it is inactive form and that this inactive form just can't have any sort of response in our system, that it's only the 1, 25 D that actually has any sort of response and I know you certainly told me that the Calcidol or the store D does actually have active form, and that's the one that actually produces all the good stuff in our body. Can you give us a little more detail about that?

Ray Peat (00:28:46):
Yeah. The decisive experiments, that show that, were the receptor knockout experiments that the vitamin D receptor supposedly responds to the 1,25 dihydroxy but if you knock out that receptor, the 25 hydroxy does all of the same functions, so neither the receptor nor the 1,25 dihydroxy is essential when you have calcium and the 25 hydroxy and the knockout experiments with the one hydroxylase, two similar results.

Kitty Blomfield (00:29:33):
So, that kind of goes back to Gilbert Ling's theory, that it's not just about this receptor idea and I know they kind of talk a lot about the VDR, the vitamin D receptors in the anti-D supplement group, and essentially what you're saying is that that doesn't matter?

Ray Peat (00:29:55):
Yeah, the whole cell, the whole organism in fact, is the real receptor, because every receptor is sensitive to context and if you take out the so-called specific protein, that's named the receptor still, you have the whole context and it turns out that the receptor is just like an extra leverage point for getting the quick, easy change of the physiology, but as long as you have a living cell in a whole organism, then the specific receptors are just a part of the story, not at all the whole picture.

Kitty Blomfield (00:30:47):
So essentially the environment that the cell in has plays a huge role in how the cell reacts to certain substances?

Ray Peat (00:30:55):
Yeah, the cell is always orienting itself to its environment and when you produce an organism without the receptor or the one hydroxylase other things take over and fill in for the lack of that particular thing.

Kitty Blomfield (00:31:18):
I see, so I guess just for context, it's good to know that the cell will respond differently depending on the environment that it's in, if the body is healthier, it's going to respond differently than if the body is unhealthy and if it's under inflammation and you're not giving it enough sugar or enough other things that cell's going to react very differently, than one that is properly supported, good thyroid function and so forth.

Ray Peat (00:31:45):
Yeah. That's the high energy state of the cell, which is stable and essentially in a resting and readiness condition. If it's lower in energy then any slight disturbance can throw things off but, the cell is more oriented and ready to handle its environment when the whole system is well energized and well fed.

Kitty Blomfield (00:32:17):
Gotcha. So what about the belief that a vitamin D supplement is actually immune suppressive? So, some people report that they feel better taking a vitamin D supplement and then one theory is that, well, the reason you feel better is because it is suppressing, your immune system is what's happening, is its just suppressing the 1,25 D and that what's making you feel better?

Ray Peat (00:32:45):
Yeah. I think that's part of it. Part of the confusion is the definition of the immune system. People talk about wanting to stimulate the immune system, but I think that's the last thing we want to do. The immune system it means whatever we do to a damaging threat, some kind of injury, then we say that the immune system has been activated, but a very healthy organism, for example, with lots of calcium and vitamin D doesn't even notice it, it isn't harmed by the presence of the pathogen. So the immune system isn't activated by the really healthy organisms, for example, 98% of the really healthy people, don't mind having the COVID virus, it's a minor irritant or disturbing effect when your cells are in a stable, highly energized condition. It's only the borderline low energy, inflamed condition of old age or existing sickness that makes something like the COVID virus or a bacterium or whatever, a fungus or toxin and so on the body doesn't get damaged when it's in a healthy, energized condition.

Kitty Blomfield (00:34:35):
Right, so I'm going to take a little turn and say, there are some researchers that are utilizing a really low vitamin D status to address autoimmune issues and they're saying that if they suppress the D status to well below 12, that they're actually getting responses where people are recovering from an autoimmune issue, is there some explanation for that?

Ray Peat (00:35:03):
That would be the Trevor Marshall people.

Kitty Blomfield (00:35:07):
That would be them, correct.

Ray Peat (00:35:17):
I don't like to even call it reasoning. It's the application of an engineering metaphor of biology and an electoral engineer, for example, thinks in terms of hard wiring and switches and flow of current and so on and so the idea of receptors and the innate immune processes and all of that fits very well with an engineering orientation. A lot of, if not, all of Trevor Marshall's ideas are based on what he calls computer modeling.

Ray Peat (00:36:10):
In 2006, he referred to the Olmesartan and similar angiotensin receptor inhibitors called them antagonists of the vitamin D receptor but then in 2017, he was calling them agonists of the vitamin D receptor and saying they restored the vitamin D receptor function. What they empirically are doing with a mild dose of Minocycline and it happens to be a very effective anti-inflammatory agent, as well as an antibiotic or antibacterial, and the Sartans, Olmesartan or Losartan, those are very basic effective anti-inflammatory agents. So when you're talking about autoimmune and degenerative diseases, both anti-inflammatory agents, Minocycline and Olmesartan are going to reduce the symptoms. I don't think they have any particular, either antagonist or receptive or restorative effect on the vitamin D receptor.

Kitty Blomfield (00:37:47):
So, Trevor Marshall uses, I think it's Benicar to treat a lot of his patients, which is a angiotensin to receptor antagonist blood pressure medication but what you're saying is it may be not even the suppression of vitamin D that's making the difference. It might just be these medications are making the difference?

Ray Peat (00:38:09):
Yeah, I don't think he presents any evidence at all, that it has anything to do with the vitamin D receptor. It was originally based on so-called computer modeling, no experiments, really, and then he changed his firm antagonist to agonist. In fact, the Sartans in general are very powerful anti-inflammatory protective agents, regardless of whether its rheumatoid arthritis that's the problem, or COVID infection. It's a general all purpose anti-inflammatory protective substance.

Kitty Blomfield (00:39:03):
Right, I remember you talking about Losartan being used in COVID and helped people get through COVID, so I would imagine that these other ones would work as well, very interesting. So flipping again, could store D status be a sign of sickness, meaning, if somebody's D is low, does that mean that they are sick or does that mean, or a another argument is, does it actual need for more D or is it just a sign that they may be sick and that restoring their health would correct their D.

Ray Peat (00:39:47):
If a person is taking large amounts of a vitamin D supplement or getting sunlight and still they're circulating 25 hydroxy Cholecalciferol, if that is still low, I think that means they have a liver inflammatory problem, because the liver is a major part that creates the 25 hydroxy active form. I think most of the background of the question has to do with the Trevor Marshall doctrine, that there are occult organisms inside cells causing sickness and that his protocol is the way to eventually eliminate those occult or organisms.

Kitty Blomfield (00:40:48):
So, let's say somebody was taking a decent amount of D or getting sunlight and had, like I said, low D level, still their store D was quite low. What would you at that point recommend, would you say continue to take more D or is there something else that we need to look at?

Ray Peat (00:41:06):
Yeah. The whole picture of what could be the source of inflammation and liver injury, but taking vitamin D isn't going to make the problem worse, the way the Trevor people, Marshall people say it will.

Kitty Blomfield (00:41:25):
Okay so at that pointed what about for somebody who takes a D supplement and it makes them feel absolutely horrible?

Ray Peat (00:41:38):
I've been hearing from a few people who were deteriorating rapidly, one thought she was approaching death with neurological and all kinds of other symptoms. I looked at her diet and supplements, and she was supplementing things in a base of medium chain triglycerides and when she stopped everything containing MCT, all of her symptoms went away. There's one study in animals they've found that a peanut allergy, for example, was created in the presence of MCT, it affects the immune system on the lining of the intestine in a way that destroys our ability to resist antigens and allergens and makes us susceptible to food allergy symptoms.

Kitty Blomfield (00:42:49):
That's interesting. I mean, the one supplement I usually recommend is Carlson's and that is in MCT oil so you're saying to avoid the ones in MCT oil, or, if it is creating an irritation, it could be the oil, might be okay. Are they okay to have in MCT oil? Is there one that you know of that is good, that is not in those things.

Ray Peat (00:43:12):
Lots of people get benefit from them, but I think some of the intense, bad reactions stop happening when they use a olive oil base vitamin D there are several companies that make a pure olive oil and vitamin D product either in dropped or capsules.

Kitty Blomfield (00:43:35):
Okay. Do you happen to know any offhand that we…

Ray Peat (00:43:39):
I don't remember

Kitty Blomfield (00:43:40):
…Reference?

Ray Peat (00:43:41):
No, I don't remember, just look for the price. They vary tremendously in cost.

Kitty Blomfield (00:43:47):
Okay, so a vitamin D in olive oil would be where to try if you are currently taking a D supplement and having a bad reaction, and you also…

Ray Peat (00:43:56):
I think so.

Kitty Blomfield (00:43:57):
…lead low D status. Okay. What about, lets kind of flip into maybe talking a bit about the calcium and D kind of communication and how they're all intertwined with each other. I'm going to go back real quick if somebody has low D could it also mean other things, meaning, I've certainly read some research showing that just taking magnesium can raise store D levels. So would it make sense for someone to actually explore other avenues before taking a D supplement, looking at some of the co-factors that go into a vitamin D metabolism?

Ray Peat (00:44:50):
Yeah for example, including milk and cheese in your diet is a good first step to see whether it might be a calcium, magnesium deficiency, because both of those have both an activating and a stabilizing protective potentially sedating action, a quieting effect on inflammation, for example. So a deficiency of either magnesium or calcium can lead to the inflammatory condition that activates the 1,25 dihydroxy D.

Kitty Blomfield (00:45:40):
Okay, so just being low in calcium or magnesium will initiate an inflammatory response, which will pull the 25 or the store D down and will elevate your 1,25 active D numbers. Is that correct?

Ray Peat (00:45:55):
Yeah.

Kitty Blomfield (00:45:56):
Okay so here's an interesting question are high cholesterol levels and low vitamin D status correlated since cholesterol is the precursor for D?

Ray Peat (00:46:11):
Yeah, in old people, for example the vitamin D that is active in the skin is greatly reduced and that shows that the cholesterol is a major reason that aging reduces vitamin D production. They just aren't putting the cholesterol in the position to be activated by sunlight.

Kitty Blomfield (00:46:48):
So then it would be fair to say that possibly taking a statin or any cholesterol lowering medication is certainly going to affect your vitamin D status?

Ray Peat (00:46:58):
Yeah. It affects everything including vitamin D status.

Kitty Blomfield (00:47:03):
Okay, so that would be certainly something to look at. Would it be more something if your cholesterol was high, would you first look at something like thyroid function or neural efficiency?

Ray Peat (00:47:17):
In the 1930s into the 1940s, hypothyroidism was very commonly diagnosed by elevated cholesterol and over and over experimenters within people who had their thyroid gland removed, and [inaudible 00:47:38] showed that thyroid reliably lowers cholesterol as it increases the metabolic rate, it's a very predictable event. The whole hypercholesterolemia culture grew up along with the suppression of the existing knowledge of thyroid hormone function.

Kitty Blomfield (00:48:08):
So essentially if somebody is high cholesterol, not that you need to take a thyroid, but obviously improving thyroid function, whether it's for proper diet or de-stressing that alone, without even taking a D supplement, could improve their D status?

Ray Peat (00:48:26):
Yeah, the thyroid and vitamin D and calcium are, intimately interrelated. You can't separate the thyroid from the vitamin D and calcium metabolism.

Kitty Blomfield (00:48:43):
Gotcha. What about, can we actually store enough D for the winter months, is that what the summer's all about? Essentially for those people that obviously don't have a lot of summer months, are they going to be able to get enough D during those months, so that will take care of them during the winter or, for those people is it pretty evident that they'll need to be too taking some sort of supplementation or certainly eating foods that are certainly high in vitamin D?

Ray Peat (00:49:15):
If they have really been in the sun during the summer, they will, assuming that their liver is fairly healthy. Their liver is going to store enough for several months of the darkest part of winter but it really depends on how much time they spend outside during the summer, and also how good their thyroid status is and their general metabolism but yes, the reason eating fish liver or beef liver or whatever is a good source of vitamin D is that the liver does store a considerable amount of vitamin D.

Kitty Blomfield (00:50:04):
Okay, so getting on that, would you, and I know you've gone and said kind of good and bad, would you say that Cod liver oil would be an okay way to supplement vitamin D?

Ray Peat (00:50:21):
Except that it comes with a considerable amount of fish oil.

Kitty Blomfield (00:50:26):
Yes.

Ray Peat (00:50:28):
Fish oil over time tends to accumulate with pro estrogen effects, pro inflammatory pro aging and antithyroid defects. I don't think it's the best way to get your vitamin D and vitamin A, but it is a source in an emergency, it's better to use Cod liver oils than to be deficient in vitamin D.

Kitty Blomfield (00:50:58):
Right, but something like beef liver or whole milk would be better options.

Ray Peat (00:51:05):
Much better.

Kitty Blomfield (00:51:06):
Okay, what about, milk that has been fortified with vitamin D. Is that safe?

Ray Peat (00:51:16):
The choice of emulsifiers, I'm not sure how much latitude there is, but I've heard that Polysorbate 80 and polyethylene glycol have been used as emulsifiers for the vitamin A and vitamin Since some people are very allergic to those polymers, you have to be watchful, if you have an allergic reaction to milk, try a milk that hasn't been supplemented, which usually means buying whole milk, which hasn't been pasteurized, then you can skim it to reduce the very high fat content of the whole milk and get an unadulterated natural milk.

Kitty Blomfield (00:52:15):
Right and that's one thing I certainly reme…, over in the States, we know that all low fat milk has additives of A and D in it, I don't think there are any that don't that are or low fat.I know you consume a lower fat milk, and I usually consume a milk, like Straus, where you can actually skim the fat. Now, if I was to skim, the fat aren't I removing a lot of the A and the D that I'm trying to get?

Ray Peat (00:52:42):
Yeah, but moderate amount like one or 2% fat is all you need for the vitamins if the cows are healthy.

Kitty Blomfield (00:52:51):
Okay, I know you use a lower fat milk. Do you have a brand that you prefer that seems to do okay for you?

Ray Peat (00:53:00):
No. I just get whatever tastes good. Some of the organic milks have a really bad taste and that means their cows were eating some kind of odd wheat that I don't like, so I go by the taste.

Kitty Blomfield (00:53:19):
Okay, so does your grocery store let you taste test when you there, that would be nice, like going to a winery, you could taste your milk before you purchased it.

Ray Peat (00:53:29):
That would be nice, but I just don't buy it again when it tastes too bad.

Kitty Blomfield (00:53:35):
That's probably good advice, Katie, what do you do for your milk? Are you still there?

Kate Deering (00:53:42):
I am still here. We drink low fat milk, Craig likes skim milk. Cause he drinks…I think skim is what the equivalent, cause you guys call it different things.

Kitty Blomfield (00:53:51):
We call it low fat.

Kate Deering (00:53:52):
Yes, you've got 1% and then… He drinks the really low fat ones, so he drinks loads of milk. I drink the low fat, but we're so lucky over here. We don't…their not fortified with vitamins, which is so [Cuts mid sentence 00:54:04]

Speaker 2 (00:54:03):
Over here. We they're not fortified with vitamins, which is so awesome. So yeah, we just get them from our, there's just a couple of local dairies that we support that we get our milk from, which is really good. But yeah, I really feel for all our American and overseas clients, because they're always posting about how they just can't find milk, low fat milk without the added vitamins.

Kitty Blomfield (00:54:23):
Yeah. So I think the takeaway is you can either buy a milk that's full and try to skim the fat or other ones. And if they taste good and you don't have some sort of reaction to it, then it's a good milk. But some people I find when reintroducing milk, that whole seems to be the easiest route, because they seem to tolerate the best, at least in the beginning. So that's my general advice on that. Okay. Still got a bunch. So everybody put on their seatbelt. So Ray, when we measure the stored vitamin D or the Calcitriol in the blood, is this an accurate number because I always hear about there's certain things like estrogen and iron that really doesn't matter what's in the blood it's because it's in the tissue. Is this a similar case for store D because there obviously is a lot in the tissue as well?

Ray Peat (00:55:19):
No, the circulating in the blood, you have the vitamin D binding protein as well as the lipids in the blood that are carrying a large amount of it. So the fat tissues passively act as storage, but at a level, not much higher than in the blood and when it's in the muscles, nerves and so on, no one has measured the extracting those vital tissues to see how much of the 25-Hydroxy is inside the cells. It's assumed that the cells will take up according to what they need, probably very similar to blood level.

Kitty Blomfield (00:56:30):
I see. I think you once told me that if you have a good amount of body fat on you though, won't your body store more of that D in the tissue. So maybe your numbers won't be as high. And that might also be due to a liver issue?

Ray Peat (00:56:46):
The level in the fat tissue corresponds pretty closely to the concentration in the blood. So if you have a very big volume of fat tissue at that same concentration, and then yeah, that will act as a storage supplementing what's in your liver.

Kitty Blomfield (00:57:07):
I see. I see. So let's talk about the optimal number of your store D like what number, because obviously some people promote that anything above 20 doesn't make any sense. So there's no biological reason for you or advantage to be above 20. And obviously I think you promote more of a 40 to 60 number. So what would you say, obviously, that is what you would say, but why would you say the number needs to be higher? And the reasoning behind that.

Ray Peat (00:57:40):
One of the functions is to keep your 1,25 Dihydroxy D as low as possible by keeping your Parathyroid Hormone low. So having excess calcium in your diet and a generous amount of the 25-Hydroxy D that is acting as sort of a buffer against any of the irritants and inflammatory de-energized conditions that would threaten to increase your Parathyroid Hormone and 1,25 Dihydroxy.

Kitty Blomfield (00:58:25):
So you're… Go ahead.

Ray Peat (00:58:28):
The practical level, like improving sleep, for example, being resistant to sunburn and that pretty much happens above 15 nanograms per milliliter, 60 to 70 seems to be the safe range where it's acting as a buffer to reduce stress generally.

Kitty Blomfield (00:58:57):
And what about people? I mean, can you go too high, obviously you're not going to go higher than that, if you're getting natural sunlight, but if you were supplementing, I mean, what dangers are there, if you go to 80 or 90 or 100?

Ray Peat (00:59:12):
People working outdoors, for example, as a lifeguard have measured 130 nanograms per milliliter and higher, and there's no harm evident at all, but with a moderate overdose of 1,25 Dihydroxy, you can easily create Hypercalcemia, calcification of soft tissues, demineralization of your bones and other degenerative signs. So as long as your calcium intake and 25-Hydroxy are in that range, I don't know if anyone who has had 200 milligrams per milliliter, but no matter how much sun exposure you get, maybe 150 NG per ML would be an upper healthy limit, but it's the keeping the 1,25 down preventing the parathyroid hormone from treating the degenerative inflammatory processes.

Kitty Blomfield (01:00:35):
So, I mean, I've read research that will show that there are healthy people that actually have a low 25 D, store D also a low 1,25 D. And that would be a healthy person. And it's the unhealthy person that has a elevated or low 25 D but then a very elevated 1,25 D I mean, can you be healthy with a number of 20 for a store D number?

Ray Peat (01:01:09):
Temporarily, I just think the long range outlook is better when you're in the higher range, because you're having a buffer effect actually of an excess beyond what's essential of calcium and 25-Hydroxy. It gives you the opportunity to undergo some stress without tearing down your bones and calcifying your arteries.

Kitty Blomfield (01:01:52):
Okay. So for someone that maybe doesn't have a lot of stress in their life and is living inside, but not really very stressed that could totally work, but obviously in today's modern society with a good amount of stress, that would not be an ideal number to be protected for the long haul.

Ray Peat (01:02:10):
Yeah, I think so.

Kitty Blomfield (01:02:12):
Okay. So let's talk about the vitamin D kind of calcium connection. And because obviously I know you definitely, your big things that you'd like to promote are thyroid, calcium, vitamin D and how they all intertwine with each other. Can you just give me a brief synopsis of how vitamin D and calcium and thyroid all affect each other?

Ray Peat (01:02:37):
Keeping the calcium bound up so that it doesn't act as an excitant to cells, the danger when your energy is low or inflammation is high, is that calcium becomes a cell exciter, activates a breakdown of protein nucleic acids and the activation of all of the processes that lead to eventually cell death or loss of function. And the vitamin D of the right sword is functioning to activate the proteins that hold vitamin D in a safe condition. And in that condition, vitamins are calcium, is working with progesterone and thyroid as cell stabilizers, having actually a severity defect, an injection of calcium salts can act as an analgesic and as a sedative by promoting the stable, relaxed conditions.

Ray Peat (01:04:17):
Simply being low in the energy or having inflammatory signals will activate the improper functions such as calcification of your blood vessels and other soft tissues. And that's when 1,25 Dihydroxy becomes a danger. It has a brain excitatory effect, which can seem very good momentarily, but that exactly the same process that makes it a brain excitant makes it a blood vessel calcifier by destabilizing the relation between calcium and the structure of the cell.

Kitty Blomfield (01:05:13):
So I think one of the confusions about calcium is because you always hear about people are calcified and calcified arteries and blood vessels and their tissue. And so people are constantly being told you don't need any more calcium, everything's calcified. And can you kind of explain what is really happening so that we can understand that obviously we don't want to be calcified, but is it due to the fact that somebody's eating too much calcium?

Ray Peat (01:05:41):
No, it's the same situation with kidney stones. People who don't eat enough calcium or don't get enough of the right kind of vitamin D tend to get calcium kidney stones. And the mechanism seems to be that at your Parathyroid Hormone increases at your aldosterone and whole inflammatory system increases, the angiotensin system becomes activated and the excitation goes with unopposed phosphate action. If you have too much phosphate in your diet that activates the calcification process, partly by direct solubility effects inside cells, but mostly through activating over production of Parathyroid Hormone.

Ray Peat (01:06:56):
So when you talk about getting extra protective calcium in your diet, that means relatives to somewhat lower phosphate in your diet because both of those effects will lower your Parathyroid Hormone and the angiotensin system and adrenal stress hormones, all of which protects the blood vessels and other soft tissues from calcification. Injection of the 1,25 Dihydroxy will have exactly the opposite effect or an overdose of Parathyroid Hormone activating the 1,25 Dihydroxy will pull calcium out of your bones, give you hypercalcemia and create crystals of calcium and phosphate inside your living cells, causing them to first become excited, overactive stress producing excess collagen, excess nitric oxide, and a whole process of degenerative damage leading to formation of bone fibers hardening and calcified fiber.

Kitty Blomfield (01:08:38):
So it's essentially the opposite. So it's not due to ingesting calcium that's creating the issues. It's essentially a lack of calcium and a high phosphorous diet that's triggering the Parathyroid Hormone to pull calcium from the bones and then that is what essentially is creating all this calcification.

Ray Peat (01:09:00):
Yeah, it's been known now for decades that women with the worst osteoporosis have the most calcified blood vessels.

Kitty Blomfield (01:09:14):
Gotcha. And so obviously, and this is obviously why you definitely promote a high calcium to phosphorus diet, which essentially is a high dairy diet and low grain and meat diet. Is that the primary reason?

Ray Peat (01:09:30):
Yeah. Grains, legumes, nuts, meats and fish all can create an excess of phosphate in the system activating your Parathyroid Hormone. And during the night, just the stress of the darkness of a single night, it increases your Parathyroid Hormone. And if you measure the calcium output in the urine of a person who is developing osteoporosis, most of the days, calcium loss is in the morning urine because of the elevation of Parathyroid Hormone during the night, breaking down the bones, making you relatively hypercalcemic, hardening your arteries and other tissues. And so, especially at bedtime milk and vitamin G are protective against this constant nocturnal loss of calcium.

Kitty Blomfield (01:10:45):
So just another reason to have milk and honey, before you go to bed to help with that process.

Ray Peat (01:10:52):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kitty Blomfield (01:10:54):
Is that one reason why people are always so stiff in the morning?

Ray Peat (01:11:00):
Yeah, lots of inflammatory things developed during the night. If you look at all of the blood changes within about an hour or two or by the middle of the night, all of the degenerative stress hormones have increased, free fatty acids, which are toxic to all of the cells by interrupting your oxidative use of glucose, the free fatty acids rise steadily during the night, along with cortisol, serotonin, estrogen, angiotensin, Parathyroid Hormone, all of the things that take our tissues apart.

Kitty Blomfield (01:11:58):
So that's essentially why we're trained to sleep at night, right. To go into the least stressed position that we possibly can because of all of these things that are happening in our system, just based on the darkness?

Ray Peat (01:12:12):
Yeah. People have had their blood tested every 15 minutes while either awake during the night or while asleep during the night. And if you are soundly sleeping during the night, you'll have a moderate increase of the stress hormones, but when you're not sleeping, the darkness is several times more destructive. All of the stress hormones rise more quickly when you're not asleep. So sleep is obviously adaptive reaction to avoiding those stresses.

Kitty Blomfield (01:12:58):
Right. So if you're a shift worker and have to stay up at night, probably something that would help you would be milkshakes and milky drink or high calcium foods or so forth to help kind of support the system during that night time.

Ray Peat (01:13:11):
Yeah. And everything that protects against the shift to fat metabolism of free fatty acids, the 1,25 Dihydroxy vitamin D is able to turn off the oxidative metabolism, causing a shift over to the fat dependent metabolism, and the shift to the cancer metabolism producing lactic acid.

Kitty Blomfield (01:13:48):
Why do you think that the doctors do not take the 1,25 D test? I mean, do you think that would be more helpful to people to understanding their own vitamin D status if they had both 25 D and 1,25 D taken?

Ray Peat (01:14:03):
Yeah. The really useful test is the 25, the unconverted form, and some doctors measure the 1,25 Dihydroxy. And if they don't realize that that's an indicator of more of stress than a vitamin D adequacy, that can be a good indicator of vitamin D deficiency when your Parathyroid Hormone and 1,25 Dihydroxy are increased.

Kitty Blomfield (01:14:44):
Right. So, if you were really wanted to understand somebody's vitamin D status, what would be the labs that besides 25 D and 1,25 D that you would have them take to get a really good understanding of where they're at?

Ray Peat (01:15:03):
I think the 25-Hydroxy you is a good enough test for almost all purposes.

Kitty Blomfield (01:15:11):
Okay. So they wouldn't even need to get like Parathyroid hormone. Basically, if your 25 D is low, you need more vitamin D or sunlight, or you need to get out of stress or a combination of all those?

Ray Peat (01:15:27):
Yeah. There are surgical companies, websites that are adding to the confusion by saying you can't lower your Parathyroid Hormone by diet or other metabolic effects, you have to have your Parathyroid Hormone, Parathyroid Gland cut out if you have excessive Parathyroid Hormone, but there are these forces actively misinforming the public flatly saying that you cannot lower Parathyroid Hormone by eating more calcium and vitamin D, but that's absolutely not true.

Kitty Blomfield (01:16:18):
Right. Yeah. And I also saw studies that just removing phosphorus or eating a low phosphorus diet can improve Parathyroid Hormone.

Ray Peat (01:16:27):
Yeah. Well that is pretty well recognized as a cause of the increasing degenerative disease in the population as the high ratio of phosphate to calcium in the diet, in the industrial world.

Kitty Blomfield (01:16:47):
Yeah. Yes. So that's most people eating a high, meat, grain, legume, nut diet and all avoiding dairy and eating their nut milk. So that would be the perfect place to have low vitamin D status.

Ray Peat (01:17:01):
Right.

Kitty Blomfield (01:17:04):
Right. Okay. So real quick, I want to get back to just how vitamin D has metabolizes and talking about the other co-factors the other minerals or nutrients that are involved in that. Certainly, there's a lot of talk that if you were to take a vitamin D supplement, that it will deplete or use a lot of other nutrients like vitamin A or magnesium, potassium, copper. And so if somebody is already deficient in magnesium and copper and vitamin A, would it make more sense to address those issues first before putting a D supplement in?

Ray Peat (01:17:46):
I don't think so. It's actually important to work on all of them at the same time, but the vitamin D itself is part of the calming anti-inflammatory process. So the calcium and magnesium are essential and should be done immediately. But I don't think the vitamin D supplement is going to make anything worse.

Kitty Blomfield (01:18:19):
Yeah. Well, one of the conversations is if you increase vitamin D you're going to increase kind of the burn rate of A, magnesium and even vitamin A, and if you're already deficient in those, and since we know that vitamin A is very integrated in iron metabolism, that that could actually make iron get more stored in the tissue or can dysregulate iron, but also knowing that magnesium is involved in 3000 other enzymatic processes that by giving someone a lot of D and I think what you're saying is you just need to do it all together, but obviously just giving someone D and not doing all the other things you could create a problem?

Ray Peat (01:19:00):
I think that idea comes largely from 50 or 60 years ago. Some animal experiments showed that if you give very large amounts of vitamin B1 Thiamine that you you'll increase the metabolic rate and for borderline deficient in others, it will make the other deficiencies show up more quickly.

Kitty Blomfield (01:19:30):
Right.

Ray Peat (01:19:30):
But I don't know if any experiments at all, that would show that happening with vitamin D or magnesium or calcium to a great extent the body can use the boost it gets from one nutrient to reduce its need for the other nutrients, such that even adding sodium or potassium can reduce your need for magnesium or calcium. Simply the alkaline mineral iron, has a certain interactive equivalence and the vitamin A and vitamin D do work together, but you would have to be at an extreme, desperately deficient condition before you'd see one creating a deficiency of the other.

Kitty Blomfield (01:20:49):
Okay. So what you're saying is, even though vitamin A is needed in the vitamin D metabolism, it really wouldn't matter if you started supplementing even somewhat high dose of D it wouldn't throw off your other nutrients, if the other ones weren't being…

Kitty Blomfield (01:21:03):
[inaudible 01:21:00] it wouldn't throw off your other nutrients, if the other ones weren't being supported at the same time, unless you were extremely deficient in them.

Ray Peat (01:21:10):
Yeah. And for vitamin A and thyroid have a noticeable interaction so that if you're borderline for thyroid function and take a huge vitamin A supplement, such as a hundred thousand units, you will probably experience a dip in your thyroid activity, because a thyroid hormone and retinol travel on the same protein. So you'll simply displace one by too much of the other. But it's noticeable only in extreme situations.

Kitty Blomfield (01:21:57):
I see. I had a thought and then it left my brain. So we'll go to the next question, which is, should people ever take a calcium supplement? Are they harmful?

Ray Peat (01:22:16):
No, they should get it from food. But for example, eggshells or powdered oyster shells, you can think of it as food. Instead of throwing away the shell of the egg, why not powder it up and add it to your omelet. It's in a form that is very [inaudible 01:22:49] by most people. So calcium carbonate, I don't think is as a problem to use as a calcium supplement. But some of the counter ions have their own activities. So you don't want to take very big doses of calcium lactate or calcium gluconate, for example, just because that counter ion can have its own metabolic action.

Kitty Blomfield (01:23:25):
Okay. So taking a food supplement like eggshell calcium, which I know, I certainly recommend, I know you recommend because it is actually a food that is safe to take. Is there any way you should take that? I've always read that calcium is better absorbed with sugar or also vitamin D. So Would it be smart to take that with something like orange juice or with food?

Ray Peat (01:23:48):
Yeah, yeah. I think with a whole meal so that you don't notice any highly purified substance that tends to disturb and irritate your stomach and then test them. And the high concentration of calcium carbonate, it can be irritating, just like too much salt or sugar in a concentrated form is irritating to the membranes.

Kitty Blomfield (01:24:18):
Okay. So anytime you're going to take a calcium supplement, hopefully food source, eat it with your entire meal so that you can get everything together because it can be an irritant.

Ray Peat (01:24:28):
Yeah. When you separate out the major nutrients, the intestine is most efficient when it has the most complex mixture of the major nutrients, the protein, fat and carbohydrate, for example. If you eat only one component at a time, your intestine doesn't recognize it as quite proper food. And so it's not as efficient at absorbing any of the ingredients. Your intestine wants a complex, natural, sort of mixture of nutrients.

Kitty Blomfield (01:25:12):
Right. I think there's always an argument that calcium carbonate isn't absorbed very well. And would you just say if you consumed it with your complete meal and with some sugar, that it would absorb much better?

Ray Peat (01:25:25):
Yeah. It becomes calcium chloride in the presence of stomach acid.

Kitty Blomfield (01:25:28):
I see. I see. Okay. Is there any issues with, obviously, I always think milk is a perfect food because it comes with all of the other co-factors like vitamin A and D and magnesium, all the supporting agents are all together. And I feel like that's kind of how mother nature meant it. And so when you do do something like a supplement, is there ever a problem to just how your body will take it in? I've always read, if you do too much calcium, you're going to lower your potassium and you'll just throw off your minerals. Is that going to happen, or will your body kind of figure it out?

Ray Peat (01:26:08):
Yeah. The receptor idea leads to a lot of those worries that are unnecessary. The cells and the intestine and the body in general are very adaptive and basically intelligent about testing what it takes in so that it isn't very easily disturbed.

Kitty Blomfield (01:26:39):
Okay. Right. Because I've heard in circles that if you ingest too much calcium that somehow it can have a thyroid suppressing effect. And I think it's because it was going to lower potassium and other minerals. And I'm hearing that that's not the case.

Ray Peat (01:26:58):
Yeah. That started, I think, with some pharmaceutical extra months in which they found that taking a thyroxine supplement at the same time that you take a calcium supplement, or drink milk, slows the absorption of the thyroxine. But a lot of pharmacists are obsessed with the idea of quick absorption. But in the case of thyroid, for example, slow absorption is what you want. And with most nutrients, slow, steady absorption is the best for your system to sort out and use properly.

Kitty Blomfield (01:27:45):
Okay, perfect. What about… You always hear about certain ratios of minerals. And one in particular that I've heard of is this calcium magnesium ratio where, you hear, “Hey, you need to have almost 10 times as much calcium to magnesium.” And then I've also heard the reverse where the magnesium should be much higher than the calcium. Are you just going back to the entire, back to that receptor theory that… Does that matter? Do we need to be aware of something like that? Or should we just eat whole foods and not worry?

Ray Peat (01:28:20):
Basically, yeah. The body can sort out great ranges of proportion between calcium and magnesium. And milk has quite a lot more calcium than magnesium. But a pure milk diet, you can't become magnesium deficiency because milk has more than enough magnesium if you're getting an adequate calcium supply from it.

Kitty Blomfield (01:28:55):
Okay. And that kind of brings me to the next question that, and just so everybody knows we're almost to the finish line, which is super exciting. But I think this has been so interesting. I think a lot of people get this idea of this imbalance of minerals but it's because they're using a diagnostic test, like a hair mineral, hair tissue mineral analysis tests. And I think that you get all these ratios on this test and say, “Oh, look, you're high in calcium,” or, “You're high in this.” Is that a good test to understand the minerals inside of us?

Ray Peat (01:29:28):
No, that's a good test of what you wash your hair with and just being in a dusty environment or a chemically polluted environment, you can tell where a person has been by smelling their hair, because it binds things so easily. And it will pull things out of the water. With a moderate amount of calcium in the water, your hair is going to bind a lot of calcium. But if you have softened water with lots of sodium in it, then your hair is going to experience that higher sodium, rather than calcium environment. Experimenters, years ago, compared toenails to hair and found the toenails, by being constantly protected and a thicker material than hair, is much more representative of your actual tissue mineral levels. But still your toenails take about six months to get long enough to clip off. And so the hair is convenient and if you clip it at close to your skin, you can get hair that has only been exposed to the environment for several days. But still just one shampoo with hard water is going to fill your hair with calcium or magnesium.

Kitty Blomfield (01:31:19):
What about hair pulled? What if they pull the root? Would that make a difference?

Ray Peat (01:31:26):
Yeah. If you've made sure just the knob on the end.

Kitty Blomfield (01:31:31):
You would get more. Would it still be an accurate even? Like I said, if you were able to use the hair that hadn't been altered by water or air, would that hair be a good analysis of the minerals?

Ray Peat (01:31:47):
The water gets pretty far down the hair shaft, so it would have to just be the very knob at to end.

Kitty Blomfield (01:31:58):
Okay. Is there any good tests outside of ripping your toenail off, that sounds a little painful, of actually checking minerals in your body? I mean, is blood acceptable? Would that give you some understanding?

Ray Peat (01:32:15):
Yeah. If you include all of the blood cells, that's going to be a very accurate and repeatable, or representative of your mineral content.

Kitty Blomfield (01:32:29):
So what tests would those be specifically? Because that's obviously not a normal test that your doctor's going to do. Are you talking about the red blood cell, what's in those?

Ray Peat (01:32:44):
A chemist which just dissolves the whole thing in an acid or alkaline and just measure the mineral content in an absolute sense.

Kitty Blomfield (01:33:01):
And you're referencing the blood though?

Ray Peat (01:33:03):
Yeah.

Kitty Blomfield (01:33:03):
Measurable in the blood.

Ray Peat (01:33:05):
Yeah.

Kitty Blomfield (01:33:06):
Okay. So, but if I wanted to go to my lab and then I wanted to know all of what my minerals were, would it… I mean, because I can go get copper, or magnesium, or is it red blood cell magnesium? What would it be that I would actually buy from a lab?

Ray Peat (01:33:21):
Well, if they're separating your serum and cells, centrifuging it and then so on, then you're only going to be measuring one component of the blood. And then you have to know how that component is reflecting what's in the rest of the body. So if you have a very good standard, then any particular component is going to be altered according to the condition of the body. But if you want to know the general body status for minerals in general, I think the whole blood homogenate would be the appropriate thing to measure.

Kitty Blomfield (01:34:18):
Okay. I had a question real quick and it was coming from… What does it mean if somebody has excessively low parathyroid hormone?

Ray Peat (01:34:29):
I think that they are probably taking enough vitamin D and calcium and magnesium.

Kitty Blomfield (01:34:40):
So you're basically saying it can't really get too low?

Ray Peat (01:34:43):
Yeah.

Kitty Blomfield (01:34:43):
If they're lower than their norm number, then you're good.

Ray Peat (01:34:50):
Except when you surgically remove the parathyroid glands. If you can keep them supplied with magnesium and vitamin D, they generally are remarkably healthy, their sleep improves. And remember that aging is a constant increase in parathyroid hormone and the parathyroid hormone every night rises and accelerates the aging process. So something that gets worse the older you are and exacerbates the problem. And so the good benefits of parathyroid ectomy in people with kidney disease for example, are very impressive.

Kitty Blomfield (01:35:49):
Hmm. So basically that is the explanation, as you get old everybody, not everybody, but people are under stress, certainly you see a lot of osteopenia, osteoporosis, or kidney stones starting to occur and that's just a sign that the system is under stress. Correct?

Ray Peat (01:36:06):
I think so.

Kitty Blomfield (01:36:09):
Right. Real quick, a question about magnesium. Where would you recommend people get a source? Would you get a food source? And obviously there's a lot of people that use a lot of magnesium. Is magnesium something that most people should be taking since we're all under stress, we're losing it daily?

Ray Peat (01:36:32):
Milk is a very generous source. Coffee is a consistent source. It's a small amount, but it can help as a supplement to the milk. Orange juice contributes a moderate amount. Meat and fish and the high phosphate foods always contain a considerable amount of magnesium.

Kitty Blomfield (01:37:00):
And if people don't feel like they're getting enough, do you think they should supplement? And if they should supplement, is there a preferred magnesium source that you would tell is a better source?

Ray Peat (01:37:12):
Years and years ago, I experimented with the magnesium carbonate. I had used it in Mexico as a counteraction to reset diarrhea. And I always had the little black magnesium carbonate and a doctor friend was complaining about her horrible uterine cramps. And she normally wouldn't consider a nutritional supplement but since she was it pretty much immobilized by the discomfort at the cramp she was willing to take a chunk of magnesium carbonate and chew it up. And in just about five minutes, she looked down at her abdomen said, “I can't believe it's stopped completely.” And it can have that almost instantaneous effect of working the way calcium does as a quieting influence, but it can be very quick and reliable. But the trouble is that many of the manufacturing methods for magnesium carbonate and other magnesium compounds, they involve contaminants that can be allergenic. And lots and lots of people get a headache or a queasy, allergy symptoms of a variety of types from using magnesium supplements. Magnesium glycinate, so far, I haven't heard any serious complaints from that form of it.

Kitty Blomfield (01:39:20):
Yeah. That would be the one I prefer. And I don't know, have you ever tried the magnesium bicarbonate?

Ray Peat (01:39:26):
I know people who use it and like it.

Kitty Blomfield (01:39:30):
Yeah. Those seem to be, I think that the least harsh and the ones that people don't complain. Obviously magnesium carbonate, I think to a lot of people acts as a good laxative. So I think things start moving quickly. And I don't know if it's that, is that because of the carbonate or was that just because of the additives they might have in the carbonate?

Ray Peat (01:39:49):
Magnesium itself at a certain level, it works as a laxative. If it's anti-inflammatory sometimes the bowel is being paralyzed by inflammation, and so something which is antispasmodic can let the normal [inaudible 01:40:13] takeover.

Kitty Blomfield (01:40:16):
Got you. Well, that is all the questions I have. I don't know if you have anything else to add, Ray. That was a lot of amazing information. I don't know. Do you think we hopefully covered most of it?

Ray Peat (01:40:35):
Yeah. I don't think of anything else.

Kitty Blomfield (01:40:37):
And well done in an hour and a half too. I'm surprised. I thought it might take two and a half hours.

Kitty Blomfield (01:40:44):
Well, you know what, as I was going, I started to realize we'd covered a lot of these other questions. I was like, “Okay, we've kind of covered that.” And I'm like, “All right, we've covered that.” Start [crosstalk 01:40:54] a little bit. Yeah. That was awesome.

Kitty Blomfield (01:40:57):
That was so, so good. And, when we did the one with Georgie, and Kayden, Matt, and Benny, I think people were just a bit confused. I think this will be much easier to understand, which is good.

Kitty Blomfield (01:41:12):
I hope so.

Kitty Blomfield (01:41:15):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ray. I'm sure everyone will love this podcast just as much as the last one, so much valuable information. And thank you so much, Kate, for putting those questions to get all those thorough, super thorough questions. So I guess maybe just to finish off, Kate. So are we pro vitamin D?

Kitty Blomfield (01:41:38):
Well, I think at the end of the day, as Ray said, I mean, I think that if you are actually low vitamin D, that it would be, as you say, it's not a harmful substance to try. And I think Ray would agree. I mean, you have to take an excessive amount to really get a harmful effect. Would you agree?

Ray Peat (01:41:59):
Yeah, I've never known a person, or even a study, of the 25 hydroxy D causing harm. 5 million units continued for a period of time probably can be harmful, but I've never run across anyone of… People with rheumatoid arthritis when they feel a slight benefit from five or 10,000 units a day, some of them have gotten up to 20,000 or more units per day and not only get complete relief, but tend not to have a recurrence. So the big doses are pretty consistently therapeutic. And once you get the inflammation under control, then you don't need to keep such high doses.

Kitty Blomfield (01:43:02):
Ray, I just had a thought because I've certainly read studies that have shown that people, they've taken over time. And I can't remember the study, but it was, they gave different dosages of vitamin Ds to women. I think it was like 400 IUs, 2000 and 10,000 IUs and then follow them for a significant amount of time. And then then found at the end of this study, that the ones that were taking the highest amount of D showed more bone loss than the other ones. And do you have some explanation as to why that could occur?

Ray Peat (01:43:38):
No. I would have to see the details of the study. I hope it wasn't done by [inaudible 01:43:47].

Kitty Blomfield (01:43:50):
It might've been.

Ray Peat (01:43:51):
One of the funny things in his 2017 publication was, he was connecting, not only the [inaudible 01:44:02] the effect of vitamin angiotensin blocker on the vitamin D receptor, but he was incriminating electrosmog, which isn't a good thing, but he was incriminating that as a factor in the vitamin D receptor malfunction. And he recommended [inaudible 01:44:28] thread cap as a way to protect the brain from the electrosmog and help your vitamin D receptor. But probably there is a shielding effect from [inaudible 01:44:45] threads in the cap, but why not the whole, old fashioned aluminum hat, aluminum foil hat, which is an absolute brain shield.

Kitty Blomfield (01:45:02):
Well, maybe we'll have to get that study over. Because there are some out there that I sometimes wonder. And I'm sure there might be something in the study that would explain it and just, I didn't know. So that was awesome. And so, yeah, I think that the takeaway is if you're going to get vitamin D get someone olive oil.

Kitty Blomfield (01:45:21):
Yeah. We'll have a look. Should we? I'll have a search, see if we can find some brands, because I've never really seen any brands in olive oil.

Kitty Blomfield (01:45:27):
No. They're mostly, I think, [inaudible 01:45:29] MCT oil and most people I know don't have an issue with that, but I'm sure as you say they could. I certainly have had people telling me they definitely have some very strong reactions with vitamin D and they just cannot take it. So it could be that MCT oil.

Kitty Blomfield (01:45:45):
Well, we can drop the link to the Carlson's and try and find some olive oil ones as well.

Kitty Blomfield (01:45:50):
Absolutely.

Kitty Blomfield (01:45:52):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Peat. Thank you so much cake and I'm sure we'll probably think of another awesome topic to have round again.

Kitty Blomfield (01:46:04):
I hope so. Ray, it was such a pleasure to talk to you and let me pick your brain for that long length of time. I totally appreciate it and enjoy it.

Ray Peat (01:46:12):
Yeah. Thank you. It's fun to think about the subject. It's an area that is going to get more and more interesting as more research opens up what the vitamin D is really doing.

Kitty Blomfield (01:46:30):
Yeah, you're welcome. Anytime.

Kitty Blomfield (01:46:33):
Great. Thanks so much. Have a great day guys… Or evening I should say. Bye.

Kitty Blomfield (01:46:38):
Bye.

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