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00:00 Coming up on the Ultimate Health Podcast. People are living a long time in the blue zones because they're moving all the time. They move every 20 minutes. They don't implode into rooms with their devices and sit around and watch Netflix. They are socially engaged. They're imbued with a sense of purpose. They put their families first.

00:21 They honor sacred daily rituals like prayer and taking nap and ancestor veneration to lower their stress. And they live in these food environments where the cheapest, most accessible and most delicious recipes are made from grains, nuts, beans, tubers and greens.

00:47 Hello and welcome to the Ultimate Health Podcast, episode 446. I'm Jesse Chappas, and I'm here to take your health to the next level. Each week, I'll bring you deep conversations with health and wellness leaders from around the world.

00:59 This week I'm chatting again with Dan Buettner. He's a National Geographic explorer, a writer, and the founder of Blue Zones. He just released a new book, The Blue Zones Challenge, and today we're discussing how you can optimize your diet and lifestyle to live a longer and better life, and this information is inspired by studying the world's longest-lived people. Highlights of our conversation include, if you're overweight and unhealthy, it's not your fault, Blue Zone foods to include in your diet,

01:27 What is the grandmother effect? Dan's thoughts on supplements? And do people in the blue zones intermittent fast?

01:35 If you'd prefer to watch versus listen, this full conversation is available over on YouTube. You can get there by going to ultimatehealthpodcast.com slash YouTube. Be sure and subscribe while you're there. Each and every interview from here on out will be in full video form as well. If when you get to the end of this interview, you leave it feeling inspired and you took a lot away from it, the best thing you can do to help this show continue to grow is share this episode with somebody in your life. Thank you so much.

02:01 Without further ado, here we go with Dan Buettner. Dan, welcome back to the podcast. How you been? Great. Great to see you again. It's been a long time since the days of the Blue Zone Solution. What was it, four years ago? Something like that. It's been a long time. And I really enjoyed- You don't age for fun. I don't age that much? No, you must be eating your beans.

02:25 Well, you're looking good yourself there, Dan. And I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the principles in the new book, The Blue Zones Challenge. And I really liked how you opened up the new book with the introduction talking about how a lot of these chronic diseases such as obesity, diabetes, heart disease, you're saying it's not people's fault necessarily if they're suffering from these. So I'd love for you to expand upon that. Yes. So

02:54 What I say, if you're overweight or unhealthy, living in America right now is probably not your fault. And the reason I say that is because in 1980, the obesity rate was about 15%, and now we're up to 45%. People obese or grievously obese, and the total number of percentage of Americans who are obese

03:18 or overweight is over 70%. And it's not because in the last 40 years people have lost discipline or we've had some massive loss of personal control or massive departure from individual responsibility. What's changed is our environment.

03:37 We live in a food environment where there are about 20 times more fast food restaurants than there were in the 1980s. The over 50% of all retail outlets, including the places that you get your diabetes medicines or change your tires, force you to walk through a gauntlet of salted snacks, sugar sweetened beverages or candy bars. And we are genetically different.

04:04 hardwired to crave fat sugar and salt that's how we survived for most of the 25,000 generations of the human species but we evolved in an environment of scarcity and hardship and now we are in this environment of ease and excess and it's very hard it's very hard to to escape that so my central um

04:29 The tenet is if you want to get healthier and live longer, don't try to change your behavior, change your environment. And I love that. And I'm curious, along the journey, I know you've been doing this work for a long time. How far along the journey did you come across this realization that it's all about the environment rather than trying to educate people and explain to people why they need to make these changes?

04:56 You know, I don't think anybody listening to us right now, Jesse, knows that eating junk food, doesn't know rather, that eating junk food or too much meat, cheese, and eggs or too much sugar is bad for them. Everybody knows we should be eating more vegetables. Everybody knows we should eat healthier. But it's very hard to do that when 97 out of 100 food choices are negative in our food environment.

05:22 When I found the original Blue Zones and these populations who were reaching ages 90 to 100 without heart disease, without cancer, without diabetes, it wasn't because they're better than Americans are. It wasn't because they have better diets or some master educator educating them on what they should eat or they have heroic discipline. They simply live in environments where the healthy choice is the easy choice.

05:49 So what I've done, my business, the Blue Zone City work, and now this book, The Blue Zone Challenge, has aggregated what I believe are the best evidence-based nudges and defaults to help people set up their lives.

06:03 their surroundings so that they have a head start so that the default, the unconscious choice is the healthy choice rather than expecting them to remember, you know, what to eat or how many grams of protein or what the supplement I have to take, et cetera, et cetera. Set your life up once and you can kind of forget about it and longevity should ensue.

06:27 Well, I really want to take some time and dive into this concept of changing the environment on a micro and a macro level. And I think I'd like to start with the micro. So if somebody, you know, decides they want to make some changes in the home, in the kitchen, where do they begin?

06:43 Start with your countertop. So Cornell Food Lab has done very good research that found that if you put chips on your counter or cookies, you're going to eat more of them. So one of the easiest things, we're all going to eat junk food. I have junk food. I'm sitting here in my kitchen right now. I, you know, I got a.

07:02 thing of, you know, I'll show you. I have, you know, I have oat milk ice cream right here. And, you know, and I like it, but it's out of the way. I have to stoop to get it. So having a

07:16 Jump food drawer that's either in another room in a pantry or high up or out of the way, research shows, you're going to eat less of it. Having a fruit bowl, which I just happen to have right here, a big, beautiful fruit bowl. It's under a light.

07:33 That's what sits out. And when I walk through my kitchen and I'm prompted to eat something, you know, I like to joke, we're all on a seafood diet. We tend to eat the food we see. So having fruits out on my counter, and that's the only thing visible.

07:51 I'm way more likely to grab a tangerine or an apple or a banana than I am to go for the chips or the oat milk ice cream. And the point is trying to restrict people, trying to wag your finger at them and say they can't eat something never works. There's no diet in the history of the world that's worked for more than 3% of the people who start it.

08:12 after two years. And when it comes to longevity, there's no short-term fix. You have to think in terms of decades, not months. And the fact is you can set up your home and your social life and your work life so that the healthy choice is the easy choice. And that will last for years or decades or even a lifetime.

08:35 So you gave us a couple of quick tips there. Have the healthy food out so you can see it. You're going to be more likely to grab that versus a snack. Tuck the snacks away. Let's take that another step in the food direction and talk about what are the foods like with all this research you've been doing for the last 20, 30 years.

08:53 What are the foods that we want to have out and accessible? You had fruit in the bowl, but what are some of the other foods that these cultures that are living the longest, what are they having as staples? Yes. So context may be useful here. So this Blue Zones was a project funded by the National Institutes on Aging and on assignment for National Geographic. And the idea was to reverse engineer longevity by

09:20 by finding the confirmed populations where people are living the longest. And we found them in Okinawa, Japan, Sardinia, Italy, Ikaria, Greece, Loma Linda, California, and among the Seventh-day Adventists there in the Nicoya Peninsula of Costa Rica.

09:39 And for the book we talked about last, Blue Zone Solution, I teamed up with Harvard to do a meta-analysis of what people have been eating in those blue zones for the last hundred years.

09:51 And the way we know that is by finding these dietary surveys done over the past 100 years. Because if you want to know what a centenarian ate to live to be 100, you can't just ask them what she's been eating lately. You have to know what she's been eating when she was a kid and a teenager and middle age, etc.

10:11 So getting these dietary surveys reaching back a century or so, we were able to aggregate 155 surveys, average them out, and find out exactly what centenarians ate to live to be 100. And, drumroll please, 90 to 100% whole plant-based foods.

10:29 It was a very contrary to keto and paleo gibberish. Sorry. They're eating mostly complex carbohydrate diet. Carbohydrates are your friend.

10:43 But to put a finer point out, it's not the simple carbohydrates like white bread and cookies and candies. It's the complex carbohydrates like lentils and whole grains and fruits. So the five pillars of every longevity diet in the world are whole grains, corn, rice, and wheat.

11:06 tubers like sweet potatoes, 70% of the all dietary intake in Okinawa, among the world's longest of women, came from purple sweet potatoes alone. Greens,

11:20 In Blue Zones, they consume probably 70 different kinds of greens, not just spinach and mustard green, but also dandelion and fennel tops. It's amazing. Nuts, about a handful of nuts a day. And then the cornerstone of every longevity diet in the world is beans. If you're eating about a cup of beans a day, it's probably adding about four years to your life expectancy.

11:48 So that's where people in blue zones are mostly eating and they're drinking coffee. You talked about there being these five distinct zones that you've isolated around the world over the number of years that you've been doing this, which again, is it 20 years or 30 years? 20. 20. Okay. Yeah. I started when I was five. How did you go about locating these, these areas when you began? So we worked with demographers and demographers are sort of statisticians population, um,

12:21 experts. And you start by parsing through census data. And what you're interested in are a cohort of birth that happened about 100 years ago. So let's just say between 1911 and 1921. And then you follow that cohort for a whole 100 years. And you count how many are still alive. And then you have to adjust some for immigration and emigration. And

12:51 People come and leave a place and then you have what's known as a centenarian ratio.

12:57 But from that, you can also start to calculate middle-age mortality. And that's really the best measure of longevity. So the lowest rate of middle-age mortality means that as a middle-aged person, you have the best chance of reaching a healthy age, 95, about. And once we identified in the data, we took the next step and our team actually visited these places to make sure the

13:23 The census data was correct because often people, you know, lie or they don't really know how old they are. So you have to check and make sure. So we'd actually go check birth certificates and baptism certificates and IDs.

13:37 And, you know, we found a couple of places that claimed to be longevity and weren't. And that included Barbados. It included the Vilcabamba Valley of Ecuador. It included the Hunza Valley of Pakistan. All of these sort of these legendary longevity hotspots. And it turns out

13:57 people didn't, there weren't birth certificates. So people didn't often know when they were born. And we all, we know when people don't know when they're born, they're not birth certificates. They're always exaggerating their age. So in the blue zones, we have confirmation from these teams of demographers. And I know a lot of your work now is focused on taking these principles that you've learned from traveling the world and studying all these different people and bringing it to cities within North America and applying those principles.

14:26 But I'm curious, do you feel like when we chat, whether it be another handful of years or what it is, do you think that there might be another blue zone or two yet to be uncovered? There might be one, but no. And I'll tell you why. The most lethal export we have in the United States is the standard American diet. Kills three quarters of a million people annually in this country. And it is spreading like cancer through the rest of the world.

14:56 And as, as, uh, the third and fourth world start eating like we do in the United States, which is to say highly processed foods, meaty, cheesy, eggy, um, soda pops, um,

15:10 they're going to start developing the same chronic diseases that we do. So we started this conversation pointing out that 71% of all Americans are obese or overweight, as the rest of the country is catching that disease. And unless we address it, it's not a pharmaceutical answer. It's not a healthcare system is going to save us. It's getting our arms around the real problem, which is the food environment.

15:39 We're creating in this country alone about

15:46 4,400 calories per day per person, which is about twice as many calories as we really need. And the sharpest minds in Madison Avenue are using every trick in the book to sell it to us. And, you know, our genetic inclination is to eat the stuff. And you can't beat that. And it's now spreading to the blue zones. It's spreading to Mexico and Latin America and Asia and Africa. And it's a real problem.

16:13 And we won't find any more blue zones. Well, you did mention there might yet be one out there that you might discover. Can you give us a little bit of more insight on what that might be? Absolutely. No, I can't. It's a secret.

16:34 Let's talk about how things have changed over the years. You've been doing this work. We keep coming back to 20 years. It's been a long time. I know you've traveled around the world to these different places 40 or so times, you talk about in the new book. In that 20 years, that's a pretty long span. Talk about how things have changed within the Blue Zones. Yeah, they're deteriorating. Okinawa, when I first traveled there in 1999, produced the longest-lived

17:03 people in human history. Highest centenarian rate among women, lowest people had the longest disability free life expectancy of any place else in the world. And now they are the sickest of all of Japan's 43 prefectures, the highest rates of obesity and lung cancer. And that's because all these McDonald's and Burger Kings and pizza huts have popped up. There's zeal for spam.

17:32 The Nicoya Peninsula is still a blue zone, but sadly, when you go to Nicoya, the first thing you see is the KFC. So they probably have another half a generation before they're no longer a blue zone. Same thing has happened in Sardinia, Ikaria. So, yeah, they're going to disappear. But the good news is we captured the blueprint.

17:57 We captured this magical point in time where these populations had solved for most of the infectious diseases that were foreshortening people's lives, had very good public health, and they were still benefiting from their traditional ways and traditional diets. Now, like I said,

18:20 it's being bulldozed and paved over by globalization and the American food influence. And they're catching the same diseases that are shortening our lives. And because you've been so vocal in writing and sharing about these different places, do you feel like over the years that's caused a lot of people that are into health and wellness to either travel to these areas or even pick up and move to these areas?

18:48 Yes. Somewhat to my dismay, there's a lot of places. I see these hotels and spas pop up in Nicoya Peninsula and claim they're part of the Blue Zones. I know there's kind of a longevity tourism happening, especially in Sardinia and Ikaria. I'm actually proud of that because those places are really celebrating the older people.

19:14 which is a lesson we should learn here in the United States and celebrating their traditional culture. And there's a place called Feas in Icaria that is, you know, they get bookings every week from people wanting to discover the Blue Zones. And, you know, that's one place where you can actually experience what a real Blue Zone is. But I warn you, it's not a spa place.

19:40 People are living a long time in the blue zones because they're moving all the time. They move every 20 minutes. They don't implode into rooms with their devices and sit around and watch Netflix. They are socially engaged. They're imbued with a sense of purpose. They put their families first. They honor sacred daily rituals like prayer and taking a nap and ancestor veneration to lower their stress.

20:07 And they live in these food environments where the cheapest, most accessible, and most delicious recipes are made from grains, nuts, beans, tubers, and greens. Now I'm going to take a quick break from my chat with Dan, take a shout out to our show partner, Organifi.

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22:23 M-Y-A-Q-U-A-O-M-E-G-A. You can also use the code ULTIMATE20 at checkout to save 20%. If you're looking to supplement with the best omega-3s, Aqua Omega is your brand. I take these on a daily basis. And now back to my chat with Dan. You touched on something there really quickly, Dan, about celebrating the elders and how this isn't something we do over here in the West. And that reminds me of a social media post you did the other day talking about the grandma effect.

22:55 So I'd love for you to talk about what that is and how people over here in the West might want to consider adopting that principle. Yeah, I think there's a certain amount of fear that

23:06 in the United States, that old, the baby boomer generation is going to bankrupt security, the social security. And, you know, we, if you look at advertising, we really celebrate youth in this country and older people are just kind of pushed away. We don't want to confront them. And I think older people often don't want to be a burden to their children, but the result is over half of Americans over age 60 will spend time in a retirement home. And the moment you

23:33 You put your aging parent in a retirement home, their life expectancy drops. Conversely, in Sardinia, the older you get, and this is true in Okinawa, it's true in Ikaria as well, and Okoye, the older you get, the more celebrated you are.

23:48 So older people aren't seen as a drain of the economy, but rather their wisdom, their resilience, their knowledge is harnessed. They're still the winemakers. They have the agricultural expertise, the culinary expertise. They can coach younger generations through economic downturns, through the catastrophes of a death in the family.

24:15 There's so much, you know, the definition of wisdom is knowledge plus experience. And, you know, we can all have a lot of knowledge, but what older people have is they've seen it. They've been through these gyrations that we all think are new.

24:31 And this grandmother effect, and this has been observed in several cultures and even other species, including elephants and whales, that seems everywhere that where grandparents are kept close to the core family, the children in those families have lower rates of disease than

24:51 lower rates of mortality and they learn better and they're more successful in life. So you want your aging parents near you, living with you. You want them not only for your kids, but if you truly love your aging parents,

25:07 they're going to live longer when they're living close to your family and they're engaged, their minds are being used, they have a sense of purpose beyond playing shuffleboard in the old folks' home. And people with a sense of purpose are more likely to take their meds. They're more likely to stay active. They're more likely to psychosomatically have the will and the power to live longer.

25:31 Any idea how we got here in the West with, you know, all these different benefits for the kids and for the grandparents? Why are we taking these old people and putting them in homes and basically removing them from, at least for a large part, from our lives? Well, there's a number of small influences. First of all, I would say it's Social Security, which is invented by…

26:00 or the whole idea of retirement and Social Security, which is invented by the government, really. And they determine the age where your productivity ends and your life repose begins. So in blue zones, people often don't retire. So they're staying younger longer or there's less of a demarcation between productive years and retirement years or when you're getting old.

26:27 I'd say number two is these two parent working families, I think kind of heralds a little bit of a change in the way families traditionally operated and stayed together.

26:50 So, and then I would say third, there's probably the healthcare system in this country, which benefits from older people moving to retirement homes. I mean, there's a lot of money in retirement homes and, you know, where there's a lot of money, you often see behavior following. So that's three potential reasons for it.

27:20 And since you've been doing this work and bringing light to the value of people as they age, do you feel like we're headed on a better trajectory, starting to embrace them over here in the West, or is it still plummeting? Well, you mean specifically about older people or in general with Blue Zones principles? No, with older people. Do you feel like over in the West, we're starting to learn and starting to embrace some of what you're talking about here? No, I don't.

27:48 I mean, there's great forces at work. I mean, AARP is a great organization that continues to burnish the reputation of older people and lobby for their benefit. But I don't feel like, I don't see any obvious evidence that we're honoring older people more, bringing them more into our lives.

28:10 I think a good first step would be to abolish mandatory retirement. People should be able to work as long as they're feeling useful. And I think incorporating older people into daycares and schools and proactively finding jobs that are appropriate for older people, that would be a great first step.

28:33 Yeah, just as you're talking there, it came to me the fact that a lot of people these days are doing work that they're not necessarily passionate about. And passion is we could tie this into one of the power nine, having having purpose and passion. So

28:50 The whole thing about retire at 65, people are looking forward to getting out of work and living that next chapter of their lives might be because they don't feel their work is providing them with that purpose and passion.

29:04 It could be. According to GAL, which surveyed 2 million American workers, only about 30% find purpose at work. That means, you know, 7 out of 10 are calling it in. They march off to work every day, don't really like their job, or they're not able to put their strengths to work at their job. So you're probably onto something there.

29:29 And for somebody who feels like, you know, I've already been working in this job for 20 years, I see retirement 10 years away, and I'm pretty much locked in, but I'm not feeling that sense of purpose from what I'm doing. What do you recommend for them? Is it getting that sense of purpose outside of the work or, you know, figuring out a way to pivot out of that job? Or what do you say?

29:52 First, get clear on your own sense of purpose. And to me, purpose is the cross section between what you love to do, what you're good at, what you're passionate about and what you can give. So I often recommend taking a piece of paper or a blank computer screen with four columns.

30:14 And listing out, what do I like to do? What am I good at? What are my values? And what's an outlet for those? And for most Americans, unfortunately, it's got to be something they're volunteering for. It could be something within their family. It could be a hobby.

30:31 It could be something they do with their friends, a club and that sort of thing. But we have a big purpose deficit in this country. You know, we're marketing this relentlessly that the key to happiness is buying that next thing only to find it feeling empty and hollow after a few months after we buy it. And purpose comes from putting our gifts to work.

30:59 And if you could put purpose in a capsule, it would be a blockbuster drug. We know from very good studies that people can articulate their sense of purpose, live about eight years longer than people who are runnerless in life. So, you know, we'll spend billions a year on supplements and over a hundred billion a year on supplements and other pills. But what really works is

31:28 knowing what you're good at and putting it into action. When it comes to supplements, anybody in the blue zones using these? And in your opinion, even if not, okay, they're not. Is this something that in the West we have the advantage of with, you know, technology and the money, and we should layer that on to what these other people are doing to have even longer and healthier lives?

31:54 Very recently a meta-analysis was published that followed people who take supplements and people who don't take supplements, like millions of people.

32:04 And they found that supplement takers actually have shorter lives than non-supplement takers. So in general, you should avoid supplements, in my opinion. Now, if your doctor says, well, you're vitamin D deficient, or if you're a vegan, you need vitamin B12, yes, then take them. But otherwise,

32:26 You're literally pissing money away if you're buying. You can get all of the micronutrients and macronutrients you need by eating a whole food plant-based diet, which is what people have done in the blue zones for centuries, and they manifestly live longer than anyplace else.

32:47 And what about intermittent fasting? I'm sure, you know, people in the blue zones aren't taking it on as regimented as we do here in the West where, you know, timing it and looking at different amount of hours in between eating. But do they naturally have fasting either on a regular basis, you know, one day a week or as part of a day-to-day routine?

33:09 I'm actually a fan of intermittent fasting. The reason we're an obese nation is not because we all of a sudden started stuffing our face. Insidiously, we consume about 300 more calories per day than we should. If we can engineer out those calories through intermittent fasting, I'm all for it. As you suggested, the eating patterns in blue zones naturally occasion intermittent fasting. They tend to eat an enormous breakfast.

33:37 a medium-sized midday meal, and then a little or no dinner. So that gives their digestive system somewhere between 14 and 16 hours a day to take a rest. And also, during that time, they're not snacking. So

33:55 Yeah, intermittent fasting, unlike supplements, I think is probably a good idea. I question how long people can stick with it, though. Like most things, we tend to get excited about it while it's in the news or the medium. We're trying it new. But then we run out of gas after a year or two, which I suspect will happen with intermittent fasting.

34:15 And Dan, while we're on the food piece, you talked about opening the food piece about a couple of different hacks, you know, putting things in that hard to reach places and having other foods out and about that are more healthy. Do you have any other things that people can implement at home or in their kitchen right away after listening to this that can have a profound impact?

34:36 Yes, three things. And I talk about this in the Blue Zone Challenge. And I offer the evidence, too. It's not just, oh, this is a good idea, try it out. Cornell Food Lab has already done the work on this. The first thing is, we know we tend to, people who watch TV while they eat, they tend to eat to their favorite TV show. So they're mindlessly eating, consuming 150 or more calories mindlessly. So number one, TV.

35:03 take your TV or your computer screen out of your kitchen. Number two, we know that people who have a toaster on their counter tend to consume more calories than people who don't. So one study suggested that people with a toaster on their counter

35:19 weigh about six pounds more after over two years than the non-toaster user. Why is that? Because every time we see a toaster, bing, it reminds us, put something in me. And what we put in a toaster usually doesn't produce something that's all that healthy for us. And then number three, get rid of large plates, you know, big 13, 14-inch plates.

35:43 and use 10-inch plates. And 10-inch plates seem to be the optimal. Again, I argue that most Americans are on a seafood diet. We eat the food we see. And putting food on a huge plate, first of all, that portion looks smaller than it is. So we tend to fill up the plate and therefore really more calories. So smaller plates.

36:07 dishware will occasion smaller meals and a smaller waistline. Okay. Let's leave the kitchen now and talk about other areas in the home, things that we can do to make changes to the environment. Like we opened up talking about to mimic what some of these longest lived populations are doing. Well, I argue the most important environment is our social environment. So we know that if your three best friends are, uh,

36:36 obese and unhealthy, there's 150% better chance that you'll be overweight yourself.

36:42 So, I mean, the most obvious example, if your three friends get together every Tuesday night and barbecue wieners and hot dog, wieners and hamburgers, guess what you're more likely to eat as opposed to if your three best friends are vegetarians and they get together over, you know, delicious plant-based food, that will have a profound impact on how you eat. So, yeah.

37:07 I talk about this in the book, and it's a very counterintuitive way at health. But as I said before, when it comes to longevity, there's no short-term fix. In America, we're obsessed with short-term. I can't tell you. I've done Good Morning America, The Today Show, Dr. Oz, Oprah. They all want the short-term fix for longevity. And when I tell them there's not one, they're all disappointed, and they push me to come up with something. And there's just not.

37:34 So if you want to live longer, you need to think about years or decades. Friends are long-term adventures. And if you curate your immediate social circle, three friends whose idea of recreation is walking or gardening or pickleball or bowling, friends who push you to keep your mind engaged, friends who care about you on a bad day,

38:01 and you could have a meaningful conversation with them. And I argue you should try to find at least one vegan or vegetarian, somebody who eats a Blue Zone diet, to be in your social circle because they're going to show you where the best plant-based food is in restaurants,

38:15 they're going to, when they invite you over to their house, they're going to show you delicious plant-based food. And when they come over to your house, they're going to compel you to learn how to make good plant-based food and serve it to them. So that's how you learn. That's how you get exposed to eating plant-based food and thereby get accustomed to it and live longer.

38:44 Now I'm going to take another quick break from my chat with Dan to give a shout out to our show partner, Paleo Valley.

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39:17 It's grain-free, soy-free, non-GMO and organic, and it's gently dried to preserve the nutrients and contains absolutely no cereal grasses. As a listener of the show, you get 15% off your Paleo Valley purchase by going to ultimatehealthpodcast.com slash paleovalley. Again, that's ultimatehealthpodcast.com slash paleovalley. Energize your body with Paleo Valley's organic super greens. You'll love the taste. Now I'm going to give a shout out to our other show partner, Element.

39:46 Element makes my favorite electrolyte drink and I consume it every morning. On days when I go for a run or if I'm spending time in the sauna, I'll have a second electrolyte drink. Proper hydration is critical for optimizing mental and physical performance, and hydration is not just about drinking enough water. To stay properly hydrated, you need to consume adequate electrolytes too. They help your nerve impulses fire, regulate fluid balance, help produce energy, and support strong bones.

40:11 Element replaces vital electrolytes without sugars and dodgy ingredients found in conventional sports drinks. And Element is perfectly suited for folks following a keto, low-carb, or paleo diet. As a listener to the show, you can get an Element sample pack for the cost of shipping, which is $5 if you live in the US. This is a great way to try out the variety of flavors Element has to offer and see which one is your favorite.

40:33 Get your Element sample pack for the cost of shipping by going to ultimatehealthpodcast.com slash element. Again, that's ultimatehealthpodcast.com slash element. And element is spelled L-M-N-T. Don't miss out on this incredible deal and get yourself a sample pack of Element electrolytes for the cost of shipping. And now back to my chat with Dan. And Dan, I can see how as an adult, you know, somebody listening right now might go,

41:01 That's more of a challenge than it sounds because meeting people when you're older is quite difficult. You know, meeting new people, a lot of people have their old friends from college or even from before. And as we age, we're not in, you know, a school environment, taking part in different sporting events and activities like we do. And we're kids to have those opportunities to meet people. So talk about somebody who is older, feels like they're in a friend group right now that, you

41:28 isn't helping them live a healthy lifestyle, how do they begin to make connections with new people? Yes. So first I'd point out that making new friends is a lot easier than

41:41 developing diabetes and spending two times a week hookup dialysis machine or dealing with a heart failure, which most Americans are on the path to, one of those two. But you're right, it is a challenge at an older age. I first advise people to take inventory of their immediate social network.

42:05 So people haven't thought about this before, but most of us know a few healthy people and I would start there and I would reach out. So the blue zone challenge has some direction on, on how you reach out to people, how you do that inventory of your immediate social network and how you talk to them about connecting with them more. I wouldn't necessarily tell you to dump your old friends. Every, every,

42:33 community has a vegetarian or vegan club. And that's not a bad place to start. Volunteering. It doesn't have to just be vegetarian friends, but volunteering is a great way. Several organizations have initiation for new volunteers. And I would call around and by the way, I wouldn't say just go volunteer. You,

43:00 And this is why that purpose thing is important, to know what your values are and what you like to do. There are some people who love dogs and would love to work for the Humane Society or walk dogs. There are some people who care about battered women. There are some people who like to feed people. So you have to sort of think about what your passions are, what you would like to do. But volunteers, organizations,

43:27 attract other volunteers. And those tend to be really fertile places to make new friends because they share your passions, your interest in what they do with their time. So Dan, the vegetarian, vegan, plant-based word keeps coming up in our conversation. Let's talk about how much meat is actually eaten within the Blue Zones. Traditionally, about five times per month.

43:52 Never beef, very occasionally chicken, and pork was usually the food. But the pig didn't live a miserable life wallowing in its own shit and eating.

44:04 eating corn and soy. The pigs in Blue Zones was a family pig. It often had a name. It had a few good years of life and then, you know, had one bad day and it was rendered into hams and lard and pork meat. And they'd have a couple of weeks where they

44:28 there was festivals and they ate a lot of meat. They might've preserved some of it over time, but they were eating tiny portions of meat, very sparingly, uh, not the 220 pounds of meat Americans eat per year, the average American eats per year. Um, so, uh, they did eat some fish, uh, oddly enough, blue zones were not, even though they were on islands, they were far enough away from the sea that they're mostly agricultural pastoral societies. And, um,

44:57 Cheese did figure in, but not cow's milk cheese, not the half a pound of mozzarella we put on a pizza, but a piece of cheese, maybe this size, made from sheep's milk, pecorino cheese or feta cheese that's very strong in flavor. You don't need a lot of it to make it go a long way and flavor a dish or satiate you.

45:26 And Dan, on a personal level, do you include any animal products in your diet? You know, I occasionally eat fish, but otherwise I haven't eaten meat in years. So what would that be? Just a couple of times a month or? Fish? Yeah. Maybe once a week, something like that.

45:44 Yeah, I'm personally pescatarian. The longest-lived Americans, by the way, are pescatarians or vegans. And that comes from the Adventist Health Study, which followed 103,000 Americans for 30 years. And they broke them up into four categories. Meat eaters,

46:00 Avalacto vegetarians, which means cheese and egg vegetarians, pescatarians, which means up to one serving a day of fish, and then vegans. And it was the pescatarians and the vegans that were pretty much head to head as being the longest lived. And also a five foot eight inch person.

46:21 who's a vegan or pescatarian weighs about 20 pounds less than their meat eating counterpart. That's a big population. So you want to live longer or weigh 20 pounds less. The easiest thing you can do is go to a whole food plant-based diet. Forgive, forget about the rest. I'd love to talk about what a general day looks like for some of these people living in the blue zones. And I realized that, you know, there are different pockets that are found across the globe and I'm sure they live differently in

46:50 you know, among those, those pockets. So maybe you could pick one or two and talk about what a day in the life looks like, because other than the seventh day Adventists in California, I'm picturing them living very simple lifestyles, doing a lot of hunting and gathering, but I could be totally wrong. Take me through a couple of them and what they do.

47:10 Yeah. Well, first of all, they're often people just like us. I mean, Seventh Day Adventists are probably doing podcasts right now and working on their computer or, you know, they're some of the best physicians in hospitals in America. So they're not different than we are. I mean, they worry about the same things we worry about. They worry about their kids and their health and their finances.

47:37 So, I mean, you have to sort of disabuse, we have to disabuse ourselves that these are somehow different than the rest of us. Traditionally, though, they tend to have gardens. So they're, and they have the advantage of two or three growing seasons a year. So an hour or two every day, they're working in their garden. They tend to live in places where every time they go to work or a friend's house or their kids go to school at home,

48:05 It means they're walking. They're not getting in their car all the time. They tend to socialize a lot. I was just in Acadia about a month ago. And my friends there, you know, they come to Detroit every year. They're not different than you and I. But they're not on their phone constantly. They're very rarely on their phone. And when they're on their phone, it's usually to set up a meeting in real life. But they don't have this…

48:30 obsession with social media that we do and they don't watch nearly as much TV as we do. Their houses aren't full of mechanical conveniences. So they're doing housework by hand and yard work by hand and kitchen work. They still need their own bread, grind their own corn. So it's just a sum of a lot of subtle things.

48:56 But I guess to sum it up, they haven't let mechanical conveniences and electronic conveniences take over their lives like we have. Yeah, it seems like a much simpler life. And given that, do they have a lot of day-to-day stress?

49:11 Okay, no, but with the devices, the fact that they're not attached to their devices, not being so attached to the news, that in and of itself would alleviate a lot of stress. Yes, yes, I will concede that point, that they're not watching Fox and CNN and getting all wrapped around the actual whatever the latest politician's been spouting about.

49:34 Which if somebody over here in the West could do in and of itself would have a profound impact on their, their wellbeing. Absolutely. Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one. Yeah. And they're, yeah, they're not getting the, the FOMO stress from, from, from looking at their Instagram account or, or Tik TOK. But, and, and they haven't let,

49:59 They haven't let mechanization take over their lives. The car ownership is far lower. They don't need a car.

50:07 There might be one car per family, and that's including adult children instead of mom and dad and two kids all in their own car. It's more and more. In those little insidious ways, we've engineered physical activity out of our lives. By the way, it's not the CrossFit, go to yoga, whatever.

50:31 marathon running that makes people healthy to live a long time. It's walking and it's nudged into moving every 20 minutes or so that makes people, favors people's longevity. It's little stuff.

50:46 And it's little stuff driven by their environment. They don't remember, okay, it's 20 minutes. Now I got to go get a little bit of exercise. Their houses are just set up that they're just, they got to do shit themselves. They have to walk places. Oh, there's my garden. I got to go weed it. You know, and that's the secret. So given these differences, though, do you find that as a whole, they're less stressed out than we are here in the West?

51:10 And again, one of the populations is in the West, so we're not going to ignore that fact. But as a whole, they have sacred daily rituals like ancestor veneration. They pray, Adventists pray, the Akkadians and the Costa Ricans take a nap. We know that lowers cortisol level.

51:33 The Sardinians are doing happy hour every day. They're going into the village. And all those things we know lower stress. But I stay away from this notion that there's some sort of peaceful, stress-free people that aren't like us. They're just like us. And they're poor.

51:55 their kids, they're worried about their kids growing up. They worry about their health at a certain age. So, but they do have the advantage of these sacred daily rituals in an environment that isn't producing as much stress.

52:09 And I'm glad that you're highlighting the fact that, you know, there are these similarities because, you know, just reading the book, you can get this impression in your mind that they are living this, this lifestyle that maybe us in the West would have lived, you know, in the early 1900s. But what you're saying is there are subtle differences, but there are a lot of similarities as well. Correct. Yes.

52:31 Do they formally take time and meditate? Any of these groups, you know, how meditation is so catching on in the West, you know, over the last number of years, and there's all these different meditation apps and a lot of, you know, high profile people and business and health and wellness talk about how they're taking time on a daily basis to meditate. Is that something they set aside time and do in any of the Blue Zones?

52:56 So when you think about what meditation is, it's slowing the mind down. It's focusing on something other than the monkey brain of what we're worried about or what we want or what's going on in our life. And often focusing on a higher power or

53:18 just the consciousness and no meditation in Blue Zones, but the Okinawans have this ancestor veneration where 15 minutes a day, they're focusing on gratitude and their ancestors who have given them the life they have. And all the other Blue Zones have a very strong religious practice and a number of different religions at play here. But at least once a week, they're slowing down

53:45 focusing on their God, focusing on prayer, which is a form of meditation. The Adventists, interestingly, have a very strong 24-hour period. They call it Sabbath. They also call it a sanctuary in time, where, like meditation, they're stepping out of the hurry and worry cycle

54:09 of their everyday lives. And from on Friday night, they're focused on their family. Saturday morning, it's their religious service. Saturday midday, it's their potluck dinner with lunch with friends. Saturday afternoon, it's a nature walk. So that all amounts to about a 24-hour meditation. Maybe it's a lightweight meditation, but it's the same idea. So meditation, don't get me wrong, I think it's a great, great idea for everybody.

54:40 But it isn't exactly the kind of meditation that you're probably thinking of in the blue zones. It sounds like a lot of the other things we're talking about where, you know, the environment naturally allows them to do all these different things, including meditation, you know, the food, the exercise. It's just they live in a different environment that allows them to, you know, adopt these practices effortlessly.

55:09 That's the exact point of the Blue Zone Challenge book. So after 20 years, I finally put it all together in a book that for individuals, not for cities, that takes people by the hand over four weeks and shows them how to set up their home life, their kitchen, their bedroom, their work life, their social life, to a certain extent, their inner life.

55:35 Do it once over the four weeks and you can forget about it. And unlike, you know, 40 million people will take on New Year's resolutions here on January 1st. By January 19th, three quarters of them will no longer be

55:50 doing those resolutions. So why not this year, instead of trying to change your mind and your behavior, try to change your environment and set yourself up for success. It can be, I argue the Blue Zone Challenge is a gift of life for people you care about, your family or your friends. It's a short book.

56:12 It's not a hard read. It's interactive. And it represents, like I say, 20 years of research. And by the way, I want to thank you again for taking this time. And if your audience has any other questions, I'm really good at answering them on Instagram. My handle is at Dan Buettner. And anything that comes through, you'll get a personal response from me.

56:41 You touched on religion there. I'm curious, within any of these different groups, are any of them free of religion or is it part of each of the groups? Well, I'd say like most parts in the world, religion is trending downward. But of the 350 or so centenarians I interviewed, all but five had a faith in

57:06 So, I would say faith is much stronger and a faith community is much stronger in blue zones than it is in the United States. And for somebody who's listening or watching right now and they're not a religious person and they don't plan on going down that path, is there something else that they can, you know, sub in to make up for that pillar that they'll be missing then if they're not partaking in religion?

57:33 Part of maximizing your life expectancy is avoiding risky behaviors like drugs and alcohol abuse. And it's about having a good social network of people care about you. It's about slowing down, focusing on a higher being church or temple or mosque. You get all three of those without, you know, it's a ready-made solution for people. And, and,

58:00 All of those religions come with the suggestions or the requirement that you show up every week. So as I've said earlier, it doesn't work unless you're doing it for decades or a lifetime. So religion is a really effective way to do those things. Yes, if you have the presence of mind to de-stress and to…

58:24 avoid risky behaviors and you have this ability. You asked me before, how do you find new friends when you're middle age or older? Church, by the way, is a great place to do that. So is temple and so is mosque. So I, I,

58:39 I just think churches and I'm not a religious person myself, so I'm not evangelizing, but I'm just saying it's a, it's a very easy three for, so to speak. And, and, um, you know, if there's a God and, you know, God really cares about us, maybe asking God for health works, but,

58:57 Nobody knows for sure. I do know, if you look at the academic literature, that people who report showing up to church, temple, or mosque four times a month live between four and 14 years longer than people who don't. All right. No, I was just curious. As somebody who isn't religious as well, if that's just a lost area that we can't really recover that longevity that people get from that. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure

59:26 You can make it up in other ways, but it's, you know, when you talk to populations, you're better off giving easy solutions that they can turn off their brain. Belonging to a faith is a pretty good way to turn off your brain. We know what yields. People who are religious and show up live longer. By the way, people who go to church and belong to the choir even live longer. So go figure.

59:56 All right, Dan, really enjoyed round two, the new book, The Blue Zones Challenge. People can get that anywhere books are sold. Yeah, I'd say the best is just go to Amazon. We're going to link it up in the show notes. And thank you so much, Dan. Really enjoyed. Thank you very much. All right. I really enjoyed it too. Take care.

01:00:16 Thank you so much for listening to the show and for making it all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed this episode and I'd love to hear what you thought of it over on Instagram. You can tag Dan Buettner and at Ultimate Health Podcast. You can take a screenshot of the players you're listening. Be sure and tag both of us so we can connect with you over there.

01:00:32 For full show notes, head over to ultimatehealthpodcast.com slash 446. There's links there to everything we discussed today and so much more. Be sure and check those out. And there's also links to the show sponsors. So if you're looking to support the show, the best way to do so, along with sharing it with somebody in your life, is to buy through those links. Thank you so much. Have an awesome week. I'll talk to you soon. Wishing you ultimate health.

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主持人杰西・查帕斯欢迎丹・比特纳回到播客，两人寒暄一番，提到距离上次讨论《蓝色地带解决方案》已有约四年时间。杰西称赞丹看起来状态很好，认为这可能与他新书《蓝色地带挑战》中的原则有关，并提到书中引言部分谈及肥胖、糖尿病、心脏病等慢性疾病，并非完全是患者自身的错，希望丹对此展开说明。

丹・比特纳表示，当下美国人超重或不健康，很可能并非自身原因。1980 年，美国的肥胖率约为 15%，如今已升至 45%，肥胖或严重肥胖人群比例，以及超重或肥胖的总比例超过 70%。这并非因为过去 40 年人们失去了自律、个人控制力或责任感，而是环境发生了变化。 现在的食物环境中，快餐店数量是 20 世纪 80 年代的约 20 倍，超过 50% 的零售店，包括药房、修车行等，都会让顾客经过摆满咸味零食、含糖饮料或糖果棒的区域。人类基因本就倾向于渴望脂肪、糖和盐，这是在 25000 代人类进化中为了在匮乏和艰苦环境中生存形成的，但如今却处于安逸和过剩的环境中，难以摆脱这种影响。 丹的核心观点是，若想更健康、更长寿，不要试图改变行为，而要改变环境。他认为，没人不知道吃垃圾食品、过多肉类、奶酪、鸡蛋或糖不好，也都知道应多吃蔬菜，但在 97% 的食物选择都不利于健康的环境中，很难做到健康饮食。 蓝色地带的人们能在 90 到 100 岁时没有心脏病、癌症、糖尿病，并非因为他们比美国人更优秀、饮食更好、有优秀的教育者指导或有超强的自律，只是因为他们生活在健康选择更容易的环境中。他的工作以及新书《蓝色地带挑战》，就是汇集了基于证据的 “助推” 和默认设置，帮助人们调整生活环境，让无意识的选择成为健康的选择，无需时刻记住该吃什么、摄入多少克蛋白质或服用什么补剂，一次设置好，就能在很大程度上忘记这些，从而实现长寿。

杰西希望深入探讨从微观和宏观层面改变环境的概念，并先从微观层面入手，询问若有人想改变家庭和厨房环境，应从何处开始。 丹・比特纳建议从厨房台面开始。康奈尔食品实验室的研究表明，把薯片或饼干放在台面上，人们会吃得更多。他自己也会把燕麦奶冰淇淋放在不方便拿取的地方，而把水果碗放在显眼处，且在灯光下，这样走过厨房时，更可能拿起橘子、苹果或香蕉，而非薯片或冰淇淋。 他认为，试图限制人们吃垃圾食品是行不通的，历史上没有哪种饮食能让 3% 以上的人坚持两年以上。对于长寿而言，没有短期解决办法，需要从数十年的维度考虑，应设置好生活环境，让健康选择成为默认的无意识选择。

杰西想进一步了解蓝色地带人们常吃的食物。丹・比特纳先介绍了相关背景，“蓝色地带” 项目由美国国立衰老研究所资助，为《国家地理》撰稿，旨在通过找到长寿人群来逆向推导长寿秘诀。这些人群包括日本冲绳、意大利撒丁岛、希腊伊卡里亚、美国加利福尼亚州洛马林达的基督复临安息日会教徒以及哥斯达黎加的尼科亚半岛居民。 在《蓝色地带解决方案》一书中，他与哈佛大学合作，对这些蓝色地带人群过去一百年的饮食进行了荟萃分析。因为要了解百岁老人长寿的饮食原因，不能只看他们近期的饮食，还要看其童年、青少年和中年时期的饮食。通过 155 份可追溯到约一个世纪前的饮食调查，得出结论：他们 90% 到 100% 的食物是全植物性食物，这与酮食和旧石器饮食的说法相反，他们主要吃复合碳水饮食，碳水是有益的。 这里的碳水不是白面包、饼干和糖果等简单碳水，而是扁豆、全谷物和水果等复合碳水。世界上每种长寿饮食都有五大支柱：全谷物，如玉米、大米和小麦；块茎，如红薯，冲绳女性 70% 的饮食摄入来自紫色红薯；绿叶蔬菜，蓝色地带的人们食用约 70 种绿叶菜，不仅有菠菜、芥菜，还有蒲公英和茴香顶部；坚果，每天约一把；豆类，每天吃约一杯豆类，可能会让预期寿命增加约四年。此外，他们也喝咖啡。

杰西询问丹・比特纳从事这项工作已有 20 年，是如何找到这些蓝色地带的。丹表示，他们与人口统计学家合作，从人口普查数据入手，关注 1911 到 1921 年间出生的人群，追踪这一群体 100 年，统计存活人数，并根据移民情况进行调整，得出百岁老人比例，还计算中年死亡率，这是衡量长寿的最佳指标，中年死亡率越低，中年人健康活到 95 岁左右的可能性越大。 在数据中确定目标后，团队会实地考察，核实人口普查数据的准确性，检查出生证明、洗礼证明和身份证等，排除了一些声称长寿但实际并非如此的地方，如巴巴多斯、厄瓜多尔的比尔卡班巴谷和巴基斯坦的罕萨谷，因为这些地方的人往往不知道自己的出生日期，会夸大年龄，而蓝色地带的数据经过了人口统计学家团队的确认。

杰西提到丹现在的工作是将从世界各地学到的原则应用到北美的城市，并好奇未来是否可能发现新的蓝色地带。丹认为可能有一个，但不确定，因为美国的标准饮食是最致命的 “出口产品”，每年导致美国 75 万人死亡，且正像癌症一样在全球蔓延。 其他国家开始吃美国式的高度加工食品、肉类、奶酪、鸡蛋和苏打水，也会患上同样的慢性病。这种饮食正在向蓝色地带扩散，墨西哥、拉丁美洲、亚洲和非洲都受影响，所以很难再发现新的蓝色地带。当杰西追问可能存在的新蓝色地带时，丹表示这是秘密，不便透露。

杰西询问在 20 年的时间里，蓝色地带发生了怎样的变化，丹・比特纳表示它们在恶化。1999 年他第一次去冲绳时，那里的人是人类历史上最长寿的，女性百岁老人比例最高，无残疾预期寿命最长，但现在冲绳是日本 43 个县中最不健康的，肥胖率和肺癌率最高，因为出现了很多麦当劳、汉堡王和必胜客，人们还热衷于午餐肉。 尼科亚半岛目前仍是蓝色地带，但令人遗憾的是，一到那里首先看到的就是肯德基，可能再过半代人，它就不再是蓝色地带了。撒丁岛、伊卡里亚岛也是如此。不过好消息是，他们已经捕捉到了蓝色地带的蓝图，记录下了这些人群在解决了大多数缩短寿命的传染病、拥有良好公共卫生条件，且仍受益于传统生活方式和饮食的关键时刻。但现在，全球化和美国饮食的影响正在摧毁这些，他们也开始患上缩短寿命的疾病。 杰西还问，由于丹一直在宣传这些地方，是否导致很多关注健康的人去这些地方旅游甚至移居，丹表示确实如此，这在一定程度上让他感到沮丧，很多地方出现了声称是蓝色地带一部分的酒店和水疗中心，撒丁岛和伊卡里亚岛尤其有很多长寿旅游活动。但他也为此感到自豪，因为这些地方开始庆祝老年人，这是美国应该学习的，也开始庆祝他们的传统文化。伊卡里亚岛的费亚斯就是一个能体验真正蓝色地带的地方，但那里并非水疗胜地。

节目暂停，介绍了合作伙伴 Organifi 和 Aqua Omega。Organifi Gold 是一款美味的超级食物茶，有助于休息、放松、舒缓并促进睡眠，成分丰富，有机、无麸质、纯素、无大豆且适合酮食，听众可通过指定网址获得 20% 的折扣。 Aqua Omega 提供世界上最好的 omega-3 补剂，对心血管健康、认知功能、情绪和免疫系统等有益，其鱼油产品来自凤尾鱼，可持续捕捞且当天加工，还有适合素食者的植物性 omega-3，听众通过指定网址或优惠码可享受 20% 的折扣。

回到对话，杰西提到丹最近的社交媒体帖子谈及 “祖母效应”，希望他解释这一概念，以及西方人应如何借鉴这一原则。丹・比特纳表示，在美国，人们担心婴儿潮一代会拖垮社会保障体系，广告推崇年轻，老年人常被边缘化，超过 60 岁的美国人中，有一半以上会在养老院度过一段时间，而把年迈的父母送进养老院，他们的预期寿命就会下降。 相反，在撒丁岛、冲绳和伊卡里亚岛，人越老越受尊重，老年人的智慧、韧性和知识被利用，他们仍是酿酒师，拥有农业和烹饪 expertise，能指导年轻一代应对经济低迷和家庭丧事。 “祖母效应” 在多种文化甚至其他物种（如大象和鲸鱼）中都有体现，与核心家庭住在一起的祖父母，其家庭中的孩子患病率和死亡率更低，学习更好，生活更成功。让年迈的父母住在身边，不仅对孩子有益，若真的爱父母，他们在家庭中参与活动、动脑、有目标，就会更长寿，更可能按时服药、保持活跃，也会有活下去的意志和动力。 杰西追问西方为何将老人送进养老院，远离生活，丹认为有几个原因。首先是政府推出的社会保障制度和退休概念，规定了生产力结束和退休开始的年龄，而蓝色地带的人通常不退休，没有明确的生产力年限和退休年限之分。其次，双职工家庭的出现改变了传统家庭的运作和聚居方式。第三，美国的医疗系统从老年人住进养老院中获利，哪里有钱，哪里就会有相应的行为。 杰西问，在丹宣传老年人的价值后，西方是否开始更好地接纳老年人，丹表示没有，尽管美国退休人员协会在努力，但没有明显迹象表明人们更尊重老年人、让他们更多地融入生活。他认为，取消强制退休是很好的第一步，让人们能在感觉有用的时候一直工作，还可以让老年人参与托儿所和学校的工作，为他们找到合适的工作。

杰西提到，很多人做着不热爱的工作，这可能与 “九大力量” 中的使命感和热情有关，人们期待 65 岁退休开启新生活，可能是因为工作无法提供使命感和热情。丹・比特纳表示，根据 GAL 对 200 万美国工人的调查，只有约 30% 的人能在工作中找到使命感，70% 的人只是敷衍了事，杰西的说法有一定道理。 对于那些在工作中找不到使命感，但还有 10 年退休，且感觉被工作束缚的人，丹建议先明确自己的使命感。使命感是热爱做的事、擅长做的事、充满热情的事和能给予的事的交叉点。他建议在纸上或电脑上列四个栏目：喜欢做什么、擅长做什么、价值观是什么、这些的出口是什么。 不幸的是，对大多数美国人来说，使命感可能来自志愿服务、家庭事务、爱好或与朋友的俱乐部活动等。美国存在严重的使命感缺失，人们不断被灌输幸福的关键是购买下一件东西，但买后几个月就会感到空虚。使命感来自发挥自身天赋，若能将使命感装入胶囊，那将是一种畅销药。有明确使命感的人比生活无目标的人大约多活 8 年，人们每年在补剂和其他药物上花费数十亿美元，但真正有效的是了解自己的长处并付诸行动。

杰西询问蓝色地带的人是否使用补剂，以及西方人是否可借助技术和资金优势，在蓝色地带饮食基础上通过补剂延长健康寿命。丹・比特纳表示，最近的一项荟萃分析跟踪了服用补剂和不服用补剂的人，发现服用补剂的人寿命更短，所以他认为一般情况下应避免服用补剂。但如果医生说维生素 D 缺乏，或者是素食者需要维生素 B12，那就需要服用。 通过吃全植物性饮食，人们可以获得所需的所有微量营养素和常量营养素，蓝色地带的人几个世纪以来都是如此，而且他们显然比其他地方的人更长寿。 关于乏食，丹认为，美国人肥胖并非因为突然暴饮暴食，而是每天不知不觉多摄入约 300 卡热量，通过乏食减少这些热量可能是个好主意。蓝色地带的人自然地实行着乏食，他们早餐吃得多，午餐中等量，晚餐很少或不吃，让消化系统每天有 14 到 16 小时的休息时间，期间也不 snacking。但他质疑人们能坚持多久，就像很多事物一样，流行时人们会尝试，但一两年后就会失去动力，乏食可能也是如此。

杰西想知道除了把不健康食物放在难拿的地方、把健康食物放在显眼处，人们还能在家中或厨房立即实施哪些有显著影响的做法。丹・比特纳在《蓝色地带挑战》中提到了三点，并提供了证据，这些都是康奈尔食品实验室已研究过的。 第一，边看电视边吃饭的人会无意识地吃到喜欢的电视节目结束，多摄入 150 卡甚至更多热量，所以要把电视或电脑屏幕移出厨房。 第二，台面上有烤面包机的人比没有的人摄入更多热量，一项研究表明，两年多后，台面上有烤面包机的人比没有的人重约 6 磅，因为每次看到烤面包机，就会想往里面放东西，而放进烤面包机的食物通常不太健康。 第三，扔掉 13、14 英寸的大盘子，改用 10 英寸的盘子，因为人们会根据盘子大小盛放食物，大盘子会让人摄入更多热量。

杰西将话题从厨房扩展到家中其他区域，询问还有哪些改变环境的方法可模仿长寿人群的做法。丹・比特纳认为最重要的环境是社交环境，研究表明，如果三个最好的朋友肥胖且不健康，那么自己超重的可能性会增加 150%。 比如，如果三个朋友每周二晚上聚在一起烧烤香肠和汉堡，自己很可能也会吃这些；而如果三个最好的朋友是素食者，聚在一起吃美味的植物性食物，那对自己的饮食影响也会很大。 丹在书中提到，长寿没有短期解决办法，美国人却痴迷于短期方案。若想长寿，要考虑数年或数十年，朋友是长期的伙伴。精心挑选社交圈，找到那些以散步、园艺、匹克球或保龄球为娱乐，能促使自己保持思维活跃，在自己不顺时关心自己，能进行有意义对话的朋友。 他还建议至少结交一个遵循蓝色地带饮食的素食者或纯素者，他们会推荐最好的植物性食物餐厅，邀请自己去家里吃美味的植物性食物，自己招待他们时也会学习制作这类食物，从而习惯这种饮食，实现长寿。

节目再次暂停，介绍了合作伙伴 Paleo Valley 和 Element。Paleo Valley 的有机超级谷物含有 23 种超级食物，美味且营养丰富，适合各年龄段，听众通过指定网址可获得 15% 的折扣。 Element 的电解质饮料有助于优化身心表现，适合酮食、低碳水或旧石器饮食者，听众可通过指定网址以仅需支付运费的价格获得样品包，体验不同口味。

杰西提出，成年人想结交能帮助自己健康生活的新朋友并非易事，很多人有大学或更早时期的老朋友，随着年龄增长，没有学校、体育活动等机会结识新人，他询问那些处于不利于健康的朋友圈中的老年人，该如何开始结识新朋友。 丹・比特纳表示，结交新朋友比患上糖尿病、每周两次透析或应对心力衰竭要容易得多，大多数美国人都可能面临这些健康问题。他建议人们先盘点自己的社交网络，大多数人都认识一些健康的人，可以从他们入手，主动联系。 《蓝色地带挑战》中介绍了如何联系这些人、如何盘点社交网络以及如何与他们更多地交流，他不建议抛弃老朋友。每个社区都有素食者或纯素者俱乐部，这是个不错的起点。做志愿者也是好方法，但要结合自己的价值观和喜好选择，因为志愿者组织会吸引有共同热情和兴趣的人，是结交新朋友的好地方。

杰西提到对话中反复出现素食、纯素、植物性饮食等词，想了解蓝色地带的人们实际吃肉的情况。丹・比特纳表示，传统上他们每月大约吃五次肉，从不吃牛肉，偶尔吃鸡肉，猪肉通常是他们的食物，但蓝色地带的猪是家养的，有名字，能过上几年好日子，然后在某个节日被做成火腿、猪油和猪肉，他们会在几周的节日里吃较多肉，也会保存一些，但总体上肉类摄入量很少，不像美国人平均每年吃 220 磅肉。 他们也吃一些鱼，但奇怪的是，即使蓝色地带在岛上，由于离海较远，大多是农业社会，鱼的摄入量也不多。奶酪也有摄入，但不是牛奶制成的奶酪，也不是像披萨上放的半磅马苏里拉奶酪，而是少量绵羊奶制成的佩科里诺奶酪或菲达奶酪，味道浓郁，少量就能增添风味并让人满足。

杰西询问丹・比特纳个人饮食中是否包含动物产品，丹表示自己偶尔吃鱼，多年没吃肉类了，大约每周吃一次鱼，他是鱼素者。美国最长寿的人群是鱼素者或纯素者，这来自基督复临安息日会健康研究，该研究对 103000 名美国人进行了 30 年的跟踪，将他们分为肉食者、乳蛋素食者（即吃奶酪和鸡蛋的素食者）、鱼素者（每天最多吃一份鱼）和纯素者四类，其中鱼素者和纯素者的寿命最长。此外，身高五英尺八英寸的鱼素者或纯素者，比肉食者大约轻 20 磅。

杰西想了解蓝色地带人群的日常生活是什么样的，他想象除了加利福尼亚州的基督复临安息日会教徒外，其他人过着非常简单的生活，可能经常打猎和采集，但不确定是否正确，希望丹・比特纳介绍一两个地方的情况。 丹表示，蓝色地带的人和我们并无太大不同，他们也会担心孩子、健康和财务等问题。传统上，他们大多有花园，一年有两三个生长季节，每天会花一两个小时在花园里劳作。他们居住的地方，无论是去工作、朋友家还是孩子上学，通常都需要步行，而不是总开车。 他们社交频繁，丹一个月前刚去过阿卡迪亚，那里的朋友每年都会去底特律，和大家没什么两样，但他们不会一直盯着手机，用手机通常是为了安排现实中的见面，没有对社交媒体的痴迷，看电视的时间也比我们少得多。他们的房子里没有太多机械设备，所以会手工做家务、整理院子和厨房，还会自己做面包、磨玉米，这些细微的事情加起来，让他们的生活与我们有所不同。 总的来说，他们没有让机械和电子设备像控制我们一样控制他们的生活。杰西认为这样的生活更简单，询问他们日常压力是否很大，丹表示不大，因为他们不依赖电子设备，不关注新闻，这本身就减轻了很多压力，杰西对此表示认同，认为西方人若能做到这一点，对健康会有很大影响。 丹还补充，蓝色地带的人汽车拥有量低，通常一个家庭只有一辆车，包括成年子女，不像很多家庭父母和两个孩子都各有一辆车。在这些不经意的方面，我们的生活中已经没有了太多体力活动。值得注意的是，让人们健康长寿的不是 CrossFit、瑜伽或马拉松，而是步行，以及大约每 20 分钟被推动着活动一下，这些都是些小事，且是由环境促成的，他们不会刻意想着 “到 20 分钟了，该锻炼一下了”，而是生活环境本身就要求他们行动，比如去花园除草等，这就是秘诀。

杰西基于上述差异，询问蓝色地带的人整体上是否比西方人压力小，丹・比特纳表示，除了不依赖电子设备、不关注新闻减少了压力，他们还有一些神圣的日常仪式，比如祭拜祖先。伊卡里亚人和哥斯达黎加人会午睡，这能降低皮质醇水平。 撒丁岛人每天会有欢乐时光，去村里和他人交流，这些都有助于减轻压力。但他不认为蓝色地带的人是那种没有压力、和平宁静的特殊人群，他们和我们一样，也会有担忧，而且他们大多并不富裕，也会担心孩子的成长和自己的健康。 不过，他们确实有这些神圣的日常仪式，生活环境也不会带来那么多压力。杰西还问这些人群是否会专门花时间冥想，毕竟冥想在西方很流行，有很多相关应用程序，很多知名人士也在谈论冥想。 丹解释，冥想的本质是让大脑放松，专注于更高的力量、意识等，蓝色地带的人没有我们所认为的那种冥想，但冲绳人有祭拜祖先的仪式，每天 15 分钟，专注于感恩和给予他们生命的祖先。其他蓝色地带的人有很强的宗教信仰，涉及多种宗教，至少每周会放慢节奏，专注于上帝、祈祷，这其实是一种冥想形式。 基督复临安息日会教徒有一个 24 小时的 “安息日”，也称为 “时间的 sanctuary”，就像冥想一样，他们从周五晚上开始专注于家庭，周六早上参加宗教仪式，中午和朋友一起吃百乐餐，下午去自然散步，这相当于 24 小时的冥想，可能强度较轻，但理念相同。丹认为冥想对每个人来说都是个好主意，但蓝色地带的 “冥想” 并非我们通常所认为的那种。 杰西认为，这和之前讨论的很多事情一样，蓝色地带的环境自然让他们养成了包括冥想在内的各种习惯，饮食和锻炼也是如此，他们生活的环境让他们能轻松地采用这些做法，丹对此表示赞同，称这正是《蓝色地带挑战》一书的核心观点。

丹・比特纳表示，经过 20 年的研究，他终于写出了《蓝色地带挑战》这本书，专为个人而非城市打造，在四周时间里，手把手地指导人们如何布置家庭生活、厨房、卧室、工作环境、社交圈，甚至内心世界。 一旦在这四周内完成设置，人们就可以在很大程度上忘记这些，不像每年 1 月 1 日有 4000 万美国人制定新年计划，到 1 月 19 日，四分之三的人就会放弃。所以今年，与其试图改变想法和行为，不如尝试改变环境，为成功做好准备。他认为《蓝色地带挑战》是给关心的人、家人或朋友的一份生命礼物，这本书篇幅短，不难读，具有互动性，凝聚了他 20 年的研究成果。 他还提到，如果听众有其他问题，他很乐意在 Instagram 上回答，账号是 @Dan Buettner，每条消息都会得到他的个人回复。

杰西提到丹之前谈及宗教，好奇这些群体中是否有无宗教信仰的人，或者宗教是否是每个群体的一部分。丹表示，和世界上大多数地方一样，宗教信仰在蓝色地带也有下降趋势，但在他采访的约 350 位百岁老人中，除了 5 位，其他人都有信仰。 蓝色地带的宗教信仰比美国更浓厚，信仰社区也更强。对于那些没有宗教信仰且不打算信教的人，丹认为，延长预期寿命的部分原因包括避免吸毒、酗酒等危险行为，拥有关心自己的良好社交网络，以及放慢节奏、关注更高的力量或意识。 教堂、寺庙或清真寺能同时满足这三点，是现成的解决方案，而且这些宗教都要求人们每周至少参加一次活动，只有长期坚持才能见效。教堂也是中年人或老年人结交新朋友的好地方，丹并非宗教人士，也不是在传教，只是认为宗教是一种很有效的方式。 学术文献显示，每月去教堂、寺庙或清真寺四次的人，比不去的人多活 4 到 14 年，参加唱诗班的人甚至更长寿。杰西作为非宗教人士，好奇是否会因此失去宗教带来的长寿益处，丹认为可以通过其他方式弥补，但宗教提供的是简单易行的解决方案，人们无需过多思考，去教堂的人更长寿这是事实。

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D:2025.07.09

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