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Cameron Hanes : 我也不知道是什么在驱动我，也许是早期的不确定感，想要在这个世界找到自己的位置。我并没有问自己能提供什么，因为我不认为自己有什么可以提供的。我只是不想平庸，想要超越现状，所以不断挑战自己，做一些具有挑战性和艰苦的事情，这已经成为我生活的一部分。我从来不认为我所做的任何事情会持久，所以我总是为未来做准备，即使只是在支票簿上多留一些缓冲。这种对未来的不确定感可能就是我不断前进的动力。

我也不知道是什么在驱动我。也许是早期的不确定感，一种想要在这个世界找到自己位置的渴望。我并没有问自己能提供什么，因为那时我不认为自己有什么可以提供的。我只是不想平庸，不想仅仅为了生活而工作。于是我开始不断挑战自己，做一些具有挑战性和艰苦的事情——长跑、狩猎、射箭、举重……这些都逐渐成为我生活的一部分。

我从来不认为我所做的任何事情会持久，所以总是下意识地为未来做准备，即使只是在支票簿上多留一些缓冲，以应对可能到来的挑战时期。这种对未来的不确定感，或许就是我不断前进的动力。 这种对未来的不确定感，或许就是我不断前进的动力。 它驱使我不断突破极限，去尝试那些看似不可能完成的事情。

大多数人都会卡在从零到一的阶段，将努力变成习惯是件极其困难的事情。而Cameron已经将这种努力变成了他生命中不可或缺的一部分。是什么让他坚持下去的呢？

这或许是对自身不足的恐惧，是对虚无的拒绝，是对自我价值的渴望，以及对环境的掌控欲。对他来说，健身房是一个完全可以控制的领域。起初，他渴望变得更强壮，感觉不那么虚弱和脆弱，更有吸引力，并增加自信。但现在，去健身房已经成为一种根深蒂固的习惯，就像早上7点40分他会出现在那里一样，无需思考，无需犹豫。

关键在于几十年如一日的坚持，而不是短暂的激情。 很多人追求的是那种瞬间的满足感，那种“从零到一”的成就感，却难以将这种努力转化为持久的习惯。而Cameron的成功，恰恰在于他能够将这种努力融入到日常生活中，日复一日，年复一年地坚持下去。 这并非易事，需要克服无数的困难和诱惑，需要强大的意志力和自律性。

我们谈论了努力、坚持、以及克服困难，但这些只是手段，并非目的。Cameron和我都意识到，单纯追求目标的达成，并不能带来真正的满足感。 真正的满足感，来自于对过程的投入和对自身价值的认同。

对于Cameron来说，他并非总能从成就中获得满足感，甚至会因为负面评价而质疑自己。但他依然坚持，因为他享受挑战，享受克服困难的过程。 这或许与他早年的经历有关，也或许是他性格中固有的特质。

而我则更关注与嘉宾的连接，以及节目对听众的影响。这些是无法用数据衡量的，但却是我创作的动力所在。 我意识到，单纯追求数据，会让我迷失方向，忽略了创作的初衷。 我需要在追求目标与享受过程之间找到平衡。

天赋、努力和坚持，三者之间并非简单的线性关系。天赋可以让你起点更高，但并不能保证你最终的成功。 只有将天赋与坚持不懈的努力结合起来，才能真正发挥出个人的潜能。

Craig Jones的故事就是一个很好的例子。他天赋异禀，却缺乏自律，但他依然取得了令人瞩目的成就。这说明，即使没有完美的训练体系和自律性，天赋依然可以让你走得很远。 但同时，我们也应该看到，如果能够将天赋与努力结合起来，那么最终的成就将会更加辉煌。

Cameron和他的儿子们的故事，也印证了这一点。他们拥有良好的基因，但更重要的是，他们拥有着超乎常人的努力和坚持。 正是这种坚持，让他们在各自的领域取得了非凡的成就。

Cameron Hanes的故事，不仅仅是一个关于努力和坚持的故事，更是一个关于自我探索和自我超越的故事。他不断挑战自己的极限，寻找生命的意义和价值。 而这，也是我们每个人都应该去追求的。 我们或许无法像他一样拥有超人的毅力，但我们可以学习他的精神，在生活中找到属于自己的平衡点，持续前行，不断超越自我。

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00:50 我认为关于选择和未选择的痛苦的讨论会一直存在下去，这很有意义。

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01:20 如果我们需要扛着72磅的石头上山，你扛石头，我说些废话，这感觉像是我们各自发挥自己的技能。

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01:48 我可能跑过的最远的距离就是和你一起的那次，那是越野跑，感觉很棒。

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02:34 我很高兴能和你一起回到我长大的地方，和你分享我生活的一部分。

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03:23 关于我从生活中应得什么的问题，这是一个很棒的类比。

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03:54 牧师在阳光下田里劳作，认为受苦是对上帝的奉献。

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04:18 实际的痛苦本身就是一种致敬，在某种程度上是高尚的，因为它增强了你对困难的承受能力，但在其他方面，它又毫无意义，因为这种痛苦不是为了什么。

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05:00 人们喜欢讨论，你很擅长表达想法、分享你读过的东西，给人们提供背景，人们可以真正带回家。

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05:00 我收集了其他人已经弄清楚的最好的东西，并将其重新利用到互联网上。

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05:47 我对驱动你的动力很感兴趣，因为你在各个领域都对自己做了一些相当愚蠢、相当极端的事情。

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06:06 我只是起床，做我必须做的工作，无论是跑20英里还是其他什么。

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06:34 具有挑战性和艰苦的事情就是我所做的。

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06:34 我从来没有问过自己，我能提供什么？因为我不认为我有什么可以提供的。

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07:03 我从来不认为我所做的任何事情会持久。

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07:19 我只是想要一个缓冲，想要比我预期的多一点。

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08:13 大多数人卡住的地方在于从零到一。

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08:39 解释如何有效地跑5公里是可行的，但解释如何每周三次跑5公里，跑五年就很难。

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09:02 你几乎无法解释如何为了获得你想要的体格，每周一次以渐进超负荷的方式进行三头肌下压，并在其他周期中锻炼其他两组肌肉，持续十年。

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09:49 习惯让你坚持下去，无论是什么让你开始：对不足的恐惧，不想成为虚无的渴望，需要验证，渴望控制你的环境。

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10:18 健身房是我完全可以控制的领域。

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10:34 最初，我渴望变得更强壮，感觉不那么虚弱和脆弱，更有吸引力，并增加自信。

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11:01 现在，我去健身房是因为早上7点40分我会在那里。

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11:01 有些事情让你开始，然后习惯让你坚持下去。

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11:39 关键在于几十年如一日的坚持。

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11:39 我高中时是运动员，但现在已经做了40年，没有人比我更好了。

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12:01 有趣的是，我不知道有任何关于坚持的书籍。

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12:29 坚持做某事，不要停止。

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12:53 也许我能控制的唯一一件事就是我正在做的事情。

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13:07 也许我无法控制任何事情，但我可以控制跑步。

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13:36 即使一整天都糟透了，至少你还是赢了一次。

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13:36 人们受伤时会感到不幸，因为他们的身份与健康和健身息息相关。

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14:51 当你不能训练时，你的心态能有多好？

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15:21 对我来说，最容易的事情是出去跑步，最难的事情是早上坐在沙发上。

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16:10 我要磨练我的步行技巧。

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16:38 我没有坐在那里进行康复，而是整天都在他妈的走路。

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16:53 我被告知我不能跑步，但他们没说不能走路。

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18:54 我把孩子们逼得太紧了。

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18:54 我不知道该怎么当爸爸。

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19:26 我只是想让孩子们做好准备。

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19:51 我有一个糟糕的童年，但这让我变得坚强。

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20:07 我会让你们变得坚强。

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20:46 我让孩子们做了很多年的苦事，为的是让他们为生活的挑战做好准备。

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21:56 我让孩子们竞争。

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22:29 我并不完美。

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23:23 我告诉他们，平庸就是失败。

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23:23 我说他想辞职，不想再当副警长了，他想当游骑兵，因为他能为这个世界提供更多。

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23:55 我是否搞砸了，说仅仅拥有一份普通的工作就是失败？

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24:31 我绝对后悔我把他们逼得太紧了。

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25:00 如何在给予孩子你从未拥有过的生活的同时，又知道让你成为能够提供这种生活的人的重要认识来自于限制、困难和辛勤劳动。

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25:26 每一个认识的父母，都对孩子有同样的担忧。

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26:50 我认为你已经尽了最大的努力，你需要给自己一些宽容。

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27:09 大多数孩子和父母在轻松的一面走得太远了。

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27:38 在某种程度上，被推到另一边是一种非常奇怪的礼物。

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28:11 没有真正正确的育儿方式。

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28:11 孩子们非常坚韧。

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29:08 也许这只是因为你与生俱来的东西。

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29:58 你能为孩子做的最好的事情就是树立一个好榜样。

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30:41 孩子们通过观察学习的比通过被告知学习的更多。

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31:13 重要的是你的心态。

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31:41 我的心态一直是，让我们做得更多，表现得更好，更加努力。

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32:09 人们现在看到了Truett的成就，但他曾经失败了很多年。

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34:32 这是你如此投入的结果。

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34:32 人们想忽略那部分。

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35:55 互联网对某些类型的成功人士有一种特殊的厌恶和嫉妒。

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37:24 增强吸引力的最可预测的特征之一是肌肉所衡量的男子气概。

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38:19 力量似乎是吸引力的一个因素。

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38:44 如果你和Truett水平差不多，他会激励你，否则会让你感到压力。

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39:37 人们很容易将Truett的成功归因于优越的家庭环境和不公平的帮助。

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40:10 人们无法与Usain Bolt产生共鸣，因为他天赋异禀。

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40:38 普通人更容易与Truett产生共鸣，因为他给了他们希望。

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41:29 这种细微差别的自恋，你不是来自不同的地方，你也不是在一种不可触及或无法达到的运动中。

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41:49 有两种方式来回应：一是，这个普通人做了非凡的事情，这意味着我也能做到；二是，这个普通人做了非凡的事情，这意味着我也应该做到。

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42:25 丑陋的现实是指责自己。

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42:43 这只是自我，试图保护自己免受这种奇怪的地位游戏的影响。

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43:25 我们的地位映射能力已经扩展到整个地球，这就是为什么这么多人感到自卑。

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43:25 你可以把它看作是鼓舞人心的，也可以把它看作是一种威胁。

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44:12 我只是在向你展示我所做的事情。

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44:35 每个人都是从那里开始的。

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47:57 特鲁特的最新引体向上记录要求很高。

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48:49 特鲁特非常投入和痴迷，他训练得非常努力。

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48:49 如果你不做这样的事情，我就会想，到底发生了什么事？

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49:15 你们不是普通人，普通是不行的。

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49:15 你们应该做这样的事情。

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51:23 爱是最强大的动力形式。

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51:50 我受恨的驱动，受人们说废话的驱动，受人们不相信我的驱动。

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52:54 激情使人与众不同。

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53:43 仇恨通常是很真实的。

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53:43 人们对爱很轻率，但对恨却不那么轻率。

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54:33 也许是因为在社会上，人们希望被视为爱某事物，而不是仇恨某事物。

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54:33 也许某人的仇恨比某人的爱有更多的情感激活。

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55:27 如果有人一直告诉你你有多好，你可能会开始相信它。

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55:27 我想知道为什么你不认为我好。

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55:56 当一个人找不到深刻的意义感时，他们会用快乐来分散自己的注意力。

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56:28 当一个人找不到深刻的快乐感时，他们会用意义来分散自己的注意力。

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57:52 我在受苦的时候最快乐。

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58:23 跑步上山很有趣。

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59:35 我想擅长某事，想达到接近掌握或胜任的水平。

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01:00:10 我喜欢可衡量的东西。

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01:00:39 最重要的指标是我与嘉宾的联系有多深，以及它对听众的影响有多大。

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01:01:47 我很容易沉迷于可衡量的东西。

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01:01:56 人们在最初使用强度，但让你坚持下去的是你的寿命。

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01:02:42 你应该小心用寿命换取强度。

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01:03:04 当你的闹钟早上响起时，你有多兴奋起床？

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01:04:33 我已经赢了。

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01:05:28 一切都是可衡量的，除非你在这里，否则你是不成功的。

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01:05:40 乔·罗根在这方面做得很好。

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01:06:00 你可以回顾过去，说，是的，那是我。

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01:06:20 目标是拿起他妈的重量。

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01:07:03 我想回顾这段生活，回顾我所做的工作，然后说，是的，那真的是我。

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01:07:03 这是一个自私的项目。

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01:08:43 你不会提升到你的目标水平，你会下降到你的系统水平。

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01:09:13 没有目标就没有成长，因为你需要一个目标来给你一个前进的方向。

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01:09:55 一段时间后，你只想玩得开心，只想快乐。

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01:10:35 赢得比赛的原因是为了摆脱比赛。

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01:11:38 也许播客是一个借口，否则我们不会这样做。

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01:12:03 播客是我做的更困难的事情之一。

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01:13:24 我想测试自己是否足够坚强。

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01:16:12 当你只想睡觉，但你必须继续前进240英里时，这似乎是压倒性的。

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01:18:12 他讨厌有时有人赢的事实。

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01:18:12 他希望有一场没有人赢的比赛。

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01:18:36 比赛永远不会失败。

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01:19:05 你永远无法真正赢得比赛。

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01:19:05 你只是比另一个人活得更长。

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01:21:36 我必须痴迷才能不平庸。

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01:22:20 他们充分利用了他们所拥有的天赋。

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01:22:47 即使他们拥有所有快速学习的原材料，你也会发现，只有通过坚持才能释放自己的潜力。

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01:25:07 对很多人来说，他们最终意识到的是，无论我多么有天赋，坚持和努力工作才是唯一的解决方案。

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01:25:39 人们想知道超级秘密的技术是什么。

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01:25:53 答案越无聊，就越不令人满意。

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01:26:49 如果我说我只是训练了十几年，而且没有停止，你会说，是的，那太逊了。

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01:26:49 但它也令人振奋，因为你会说它也在你的脚下。

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01:27:04 我担心一些爸爸会认为他们要让孩子做10001个引体向上。

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01:28:03 你做了对你来说最自然的事情，那就是用你自己的方式表达爱，那就是世界很艰难，你需要比它更坚强。

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01:28:55 喜欢走路的人会比不得不走路的人走得更远。

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01:29:18 炼金术是将生活中糟糕、无用和毫无意义的东西变成美丽而有价值的东西。

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01:30:40 美国的平均水平是肥胖、离婚，银行存款不足1000美元。

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01:31:41 支持是好的，但我不需要任何东西。

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01:32:22 有些人会寻求超出其效用的痛苦。

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01:33:12 我们总是在对硬事应该有多难做出价值判断。

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01:34:07 我们只是做出价值判断。

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01:34:07 我们理解，但我们只是做出价值判断。

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01:34:59 我想要一个能让我达到105的伙伴。

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01:34:59 我没有把精力浪费在头上顶着石头上。

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01:35:46 学习何时真正享受它。

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01:36:25 也许这就是为什么我永远不会成为一个涡轮亿万富翁，或者在一些超级困难的追求中成为绝对的世界冠军。

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01:36:54 我在说我想成为什么样的人，而不是我实际是什么样的人。

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01:36:54 我头脑中仍然有一个日本酷刑室，告诉我我不够好。

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01:37:26 男人陷入了价值的陷阱。

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01:38:57 看到一个赢了比赛却还在玩游戏的人，这让我很难过。

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01:40:00 如果你从未到达过，你永远不会觉得自己已经到达了。

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01:40:25 这只是一种对被世界认可上瘾，而且永远不够。

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01:40:55 你需要承认，这只是对被世界认可上瘾，而且永远不够。

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01:40:55 如果你从未跑过一百英里的比赛，你会说，来吧，我必须做这件事。

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01:44:24 我依靠仇恨。

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01:44:44 我从来不觉得自己成功，因为我读到的是人们对我说的一些可恨的事情。

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01:45:14 我是个工人。

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01:46:31 如果你相信你配得上你所取得的成就，你会怎么想？

00:00

I can't believe it's been two years. I can't believe that it was two years since I was with you. I know. We got a lot of good material out of that discussion and that time, that day. I still see clips everywhere. Did anything stick with you from the few days that we spent together? I like, you know, you've kind of repurposed some stuff. So I love seeing that, but I think it's just that… 语法解析

00:26

footage going up the mountain with the rock and you chose talking about chosen and unchosen suffering that that's gonna last forever for me i mean it's such a good a good point you know and just that setting to have that message delivered at that time was just so powerful so yeah yeah i uh i really appreciate how complimentary you were about me in the book 语法解析

00:50

It feels like most of the first chapter is some bullshit that I've stolen or said. Well, look, if we need to take a 72-pound rock up a hill, you carrying the rock and me spouting nonsense, that feels like we're specializing in where our skill sets lie. You know what I mean? Yeah, I see. But you carry the rock. Also, what did we do, 11 miles? Too much, too many. At least 10 too many. So that's the furthest that I've run 语法解析

01:20

maybe ever uh was that with you and that was trail running and yeah it was great i actually felt great the next day uh sometimes i mean you'll know this or maybe you won't because you're always running but the non-runners will know this you've always got one body part if you've taken a big break from running and you're not conditioned there's one body part that always hurts like fucking for me it's my ankles my calves like just it is always on fire and maybe it's because we were trail running maybe it's because the pace was right maybe whatever but i felt 语法解析

01:48

fine the next day what I was concerned about was whether or not you would have wrecked me so much physically on day one that when it came to like my bit which was the sit down and spout nonsense stuff that I would be sat there it's so much fucking pain I can't even focus you're great yeah and I I uh 语法解析

02:08

I'm thankful we're able to go out to where I grew up and I could share that part with you too. And I've heard you mention on a few of your podcasts, you've mentioned the poser on the rock and the gym and the stuff that I do and kind of reference to that lifestyle or how I grew up. Because I wanted to share it with you because it's so much different than… 语法解析

02:34

In some ways, I felt alone too, just like you did. But I think when people, they hear like little nuggets from somebody else and then they always latch on to whatever they can identify with. So there's a few things that you mentioned that really resonated with me, but I was just thankful to share everything, my little slice of the world with you. And it was awesome. Eugene, Oregon's a fucking cool place. I loved it. You know, there is a… 语法解析

02:59

A lot of differences growing up in the northeast of the UK, growing up in Oregon. But I think the principles end up being the same. You know, this sort of question about what do I deserve from life? That was a great analogy. And I can't maybe it's in the book also, but that Puritan work ethic, you know, we talked about where, you know, you're supposed to work. And I think you mentioned. 语法解析

03:23

I can't, but like the work, I can't remember how you, how you told the story, but was it about the priests that used to work out in the sun? In the fields? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this belief that suffering was in service to God, right? That that's it. Um, they're hoeing the fields and the sun's beating down on their back. And, uh, you know, this is kind of the same as like, you know, like whipping yourself, um, to, um, 语法解析

03:54

the actual suffering itself was a tribute and uh it's in some ways it's noble because you're building up your resilience to difficult things but in other ways it's fucking pointless because the suffering is not in service of a thing now obviously if you're theologically minded then you're like yeah the the the tribute is that but um yeah i think even though very different 语法解析

04:18

places a lot of a lot of similarities i was very surprised with that and then probably in retrospect totally shouldn't have been working class you know limited opportunity towns probably end up producing similar sorts of mindsets yeah that way yeah probably yeah it's yeah even though it's other side of the world similar in some ways but uh yeah i think 语法解析

04:39

People, I think people love the discussion, but you're so good at articulating thoughts, ideas, sharing things you've read, just really putting, giving context that people can really take home. That's, you know, you just get these soundbites that are so powerful. So that's, that's your skill set. You're, you're great at it. Yeah. I, I've collected the best of what other people have already figured out. 语法解析

05:00

and repurposed it onto the internet. So I guess, like I say, I get to turn the tables today and we missed each other on the first book on Endure and then you've got Undeniable, which is a new one, which is fucking awesome, by the way. Thank you. I've wanted to, I wanted to ask this when we nearly spoke the first time 语法解析

05:19

I'm interested in what drives you because you've done some pretty stupid, pretty extreme things to yourself across a variety of domains. I'm just intrigued into where that sort of relentlessness comes from. Man, what's crazy is I don't remember ever being asked this before. So what… 语法解析

05:47

Man, I don't know. Now, now it's like when you go through life and there probably was decision making at some point, but now it's kind of just what I do sort of. And, you know, I'm just going to get up. I'm going to get my whatever work I have. I'm going to get it in, whether that's 20 miles or whatever. 语法解析

06:06

whatever it is, shooting the bow, um, you know, not content creation. You got, that's a never ending process, but now just the hard stuff. I think you're talking about like the challenging and, um, the mounds. That's just what I do. Um, before it was what, before it was what I do. I don't know. I think that was where that was that uncertainty. It's like, where do I fit in this? Um, 语法解析

06:34

world. And it's not even like, I never even asked myself, what do I have to offer? Because I didn't think I had anything to offer. So you never even got to that part. But it was just like, is this it? Is this just going to work and trying to pay bills? And it's like, I remember even a tactic I had, I haven't even done a checkbook in a long time, but my wife's in charge of that. But like, 语法解析

07:03

Even just writing out checks and I would just, I was never, I never thought it was going to, anything that I did was going to last. So I'd be like, if I, if I had a check for like $17, I'd just make, make it for $20, put it in a thing. And I'm like, well, whatever. 语法解析

07:19

At the end of the day, I should have more in here instead of being exact. I just wanted this cushion. Like, I just want to have a little bit more than what I think. And then I can just get through a challenging time. That's as far into the future as I ever thought. It's just like, let's round up in the checkbook. Yeah. Just so I got a little buffer and that there is no future. If that was thinking about the future, that's all I did right there. 语法解析

07:44

I know the difficulty of trying to put yourself in the mindset of somebody before a trait became a habit or before sort of an effort became a habit. Yeah. In my experience, I think where most people get stuck, and this is why consistency is such an unsexy topic, what people are looking for, for the most part, is getting from zero to one. So I'm not… 语法解析

08:13

A lot of the habits or a lot of the ways that I show up in life and a lot of the things that I'm doing aren't going well. Please explain to me the first few steps to get to a place that I want to be. And that's great and pretty doable. You can go and explain to somebody how to effectively run a 5K. Warm up, pre-race preparation. Here are some good shoes that aren't too expensive. And here's a cool down process and stuff. 语法解析

08:39

But what's really difficult to explain to somebody is how you do a 5K three times a week for five years. Like you kind of can't explain how to do that. The same thing with going to the gym. Mike Isretel, who you should have on the show, I think he'd be a great guest. I'd fucking love to see you two together, actually. He can explain how to do the perfect tricep pushdown, the maximum muscle hypertrophy and, you know, he can all of those things. 语法解析

09:02

But he can't explain how you do that with progressive overload once a week on that cycle and two other muscle groups on other cycles for a decade, you know, to get the physique that you want. And when you look at someone like you, who is very consistent, who is disciplined in that way, you almost… 语法解析

09:25

such a part of your being the habit is what's kept you going and whatever the fuck it was that got you started this fear of insufficiency this desire to not be nothing this need for validation not to prove yourself this desire for control over your environment you know this sense that things are maybe a bit destitute or a little bit hopeless but fuck like in the gym I remember this dude when I when I first started training I started 语法解析

09:49

I started lifting weights when I was 18, when I went to university, the Center for Sporting Excellence in Newcastle University. And I remember I had this idea in the back of my mind, which was everything in my day can have gone to shit, like everything. And I've woken up and just, you know, face planted from attempt to attempt. Uni went badly and girlfriend and me had an argument and this thing went wrong and that thing went wrong. But I went to the gym and it just felt like this. 语法解析

10:18

area that I had complete control over. And that was absolutely in the first instance what got me there and it desired to be stronger and feel a little bit less weak and vulnerable and, you know, be more attractive and gain confidence in myself. Mm-hmm. 语法解析

10:34

And then now it's just, why do you go to the gym in the morning? It's like, I don't know. It's, it's, it's 7 40 AM. That's where I am at 7 40 AM. I'm in the gym. That's what happens. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, something gets you started and then I guess habit keeps you going. Yeah. That's, I mean, and that's the secret because most people, like you said, you started to get a little muscle, started to feel a little bit better about yourself, but how many people get there and then slide back? 语法解析

11:01

And then have to start back over to get there again. You know, so they get a lot of times they get a little of that dopamine is whatever, but a little of that positive reinforcement hit and that feels great, but then they still can't, 语法解析

11:16

can't make that consistent you know because life gets in the way or i don't know they get distracted or they they lose enthusiasm whatever the key is that consistency decade after decade after decade and that's why like i even think like me back in high school yes i was an athlete but there was better athletes now i've been doing it for 40 years there's nobody that 语法解析

11:39

That was better than me. That's better than me now. Right. So is that the, but who can think no one that's still even running who can think 40 years in advance. Right. So, so all you're thinking is about, well, this is what I do and I just got to keep doing it, but it's sounds really easy. Isn't it interesting? I don't know of any books that have been written about consistency. 语法解析

12:01

I know about books that have been written to do with discipline and motivation and overcoming hard things and resilience and becoming undeniable and stuff like that. Yeah. I actually think that consistency would be such an unsexy book. It'd be a pretty short book. Yeah. Keep doing the thing, don't stop. Yeah, just, yeah. Keep doing the thing, don't stop. And, you know, I think that you asked that question, you know, why or how or whatever, but I wonder if like, 语法解析

12:29

Everybody goes back to their childhood. I mean, childhood trauma does kind of affect us forever. Right. But like my childhood childhood was pretty a lot of upheaval, a lot of ups and downs. So maybe the one thing I could control was what I was doing. You know, like even in the first book I talked about as a five year old, I was in first grade and I would go before school and run a mile by myself. 语法解析

12:53

And I would do is 31 times from the fence to the fence. You had to do that 31 times back and forth for a mile. And I would, I started school early. I do that as a five-year-old. So maybe nothing was, 语法解析

13:07

I wasn't in control of anything, but I was in control of that. So maybe that hasn't changed. Maybe like no matter what happens, I know I'm getting my run in. I know I'm going to, even if the whole day goes to shit, I think you kind of mentioned this. You at least got one win. There's a win in there somewhere. Yeah. I think this is one of the reasons why injuries for people just feel like such an unfortunate curse. You know, it's this weird fucking irony that all of the people who, uh, 语法解析

13:36

sit on the couch and don't have a health and fitness routine have perfect spines and it's all of the people that have tried to do crossfit and yoga and jiu-jitsu that are all bulging hemorrhaging degenerated disc you lost half an inch in my heart blah blah um and 语法解析

13:53

This was something toward the end of my 20s that I had to deal with where I had a five-year period where I was pretty much always injured in one form or another. So annoying. Bulging disc, second bulging disc, ruptured Achilles, hurt shoulder. My entire identity, a lot of my identity was wrapped up in being the big muscular guy in his 20s around other big dudes and that giving me confidence and making me attractive and then… 语法解析

14:22

I had to be in the corner doing bird dog rehab in a CrossFit gym while everybody else was sending it and getting after it. And I was watching myself get fatter, slower, and skinnier all at the same time. Yeah, that's rough. And an interesting thing there is, okay, so where do you take your sense of self-worth and well-being from when your coping mechanism, because let's, you know, it is a coping mechanism. That's what training is, yeah. Yeah, for a lot of people. If you wanted to be really, you know, 语法解析

14:51

uh, RX plus super difficulty level resilience. It's okay. How good can your mindset be when you're not allowed to train? Because to you, the thing that's easiest is going out and going for the run, right? The hardest thing would be okay. For the next two weeks, you got to sit on the couch on a morning. Yeah. Like what? No, you can't meditate either. You can't use it to do something else productive. Right. It would tear people up inside. Yeah. It's a, I've been, I've been injured and I have a big race coming up Monday. And, uh, 语法解析

15:21

I've been injured. It stemmed from my foot, but now it's up to the hamstring where every time I tried to run hard, it would tweak my hamstring. So I was supposed to do Boston with Truett, my son. I was supposed to do Eugene. We're going to do that as a family and race and do all that. I couldn't do either one of them. Right. So, but I knew I had this big 250 mile race coming up on Monday. 语法解析

15:41

And I'm like, well, I can't just not train. So I just had been walking around Eugene and I was one day I walked 27 miles, took me like six hours. Yeah. Quick walking, I think as well. Yeah. It's so, you know, and that's kind of like these long races, like 250 miles, you are walking because you can't run all the uphill. You can't run for three days with no sleep. Right. So you have to, there's strategic walking. So I'm like, 语法解析

16:10

okay, fuck it. I guess I'm just going to hone my walking game. And I've just been trying to get 15 minute miles, which is a pretty good walk. You know, if you try to get four miles an hour and I was just doing that. So that I think it was last week I walked 150 miles. Yeah. And so I would, instead of sitting and rehabbing, like I should, I'm not, I'm not running. I'll just 语法解析

16:38

fucking walk all day. So that's what I did. Right. That sounds like a very sort of litigious way to get around. I've been told that I can't run, but they didn't say anything about walking. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Get very specific in there. You are probably not eating enough fruit and vegetables and you know it. And this 语法解析

16:53

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17:12

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17:29

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17:54

And right now you can get a years free supply of vitamin D3 K2 and five free AG1 travel packs. Plus that 90 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. Yeah, dudes, I, we need to have a chat about Truett. What the fuck is, what is he built of? He's, yeah, he's a machine right now. Um, 语法解析

18:25

You know, it's, it's weird. Cause I, I, I get credit for my kids, you know? And they're like, Oh, you must've done such a good job. I didn't. I mean, I pushed those boys way too hard. I mean, I was just, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I was young. I was in my twenties. So I didn't know how to be a dad. My dad was never around. I hated my stepdad. So I was, I knew I definitely didn't want to be like him. Um, 语法解析

18:54

but I didn't know what a dad was supposed to be. And I'm like, well, okay, I'm just going to prepare these kids. I know how life is. I know life will fucking kick you in the nuts. So they're going to be ready for anything. Life is competition. They're going to be ready to compete. So I pushed them really hard and it was not great all the time. How so? What did you do? You know, it was just always a battle. It's just like, 语法解析

19:26

You know, it's, we're running every day. You guys got home from school. Okay. Get your stuff on. We're going to go do Pisgah. No kid wants to go run a mountain. And I'm like, no, this is because the way I thought it thought it of, of it was I had a terrible childhood, but it made me tough. So I'm like, you guys have everything. You have everything I ever wanted. 语法解析

19:51

Your dad's around. Your mom is here. She loves you. You have every shoe you want, every basketball camp you want to go to, you go to. I said, so the way this is going, you're going to grow up to be a couple of big pussies. 语法解析

20:07

We're going to make you tough. So I would just make them do hard things. And, and, uh, I made it, they both did half marathons when they were seven and eight years old. True. Just put up a picture. He looks like he's this tall. He was tiny at eight years, eight years old, but he ran a one 54 half like this tall, which is eight something minute miles. And, um, 语法解析

20:29

That all that to say that, yeah, I, I had the kids do really hard things for many years to prepare them for what I said was life's challenges. And, uh, it made it, you know, if I was, it reminded me, did you ever see the movie tree of life? No. 语法解析

20:46

So Brad Pitt's in it and great movie, but he was super hard dad there. When he would leave, it was like fucking playtime, right? Mom, kids jumping on the beds. And then dad would come home and be like, oh God, so bad. 语法解析

21:01

So I said, this reminds me of me when I was, when you go out of town, it's just playtime come back. It's like, oh shit. So that's not great when you're the bad guy all the time, you know, dads are usually the disciplinary and that's whatever. But I was also like, you know, making them do these really hard things. So they see now and they see all the success, but it wasn't great. And anybody from the outside in would look and say, yeah, 语法解析

21:26

what's wrong with that? That dad is pushing those kids too hard. You know, it's like any basketball game. I'm just like a loose ball. You better be on that floor. And I said, I want to see floor burns on your knees. I want you diving on. I want you playing the harder than any kid out there. So that's a hard, that's a hard thing to live up to. Kids just want to have fun. They want to play. They're not looking to compete every day, but I made them compete. So yeah, 语法解析

21:56

It was a challenge. Now you see what that results in, you know, and, you know, Tanner, he was a ranger. He's fricking badass. It's probably tougher than Truett. And then Truett's, you know, doing these crazy things and getting all this attention. And yeah, I mean, it's great. I'm, I'm glad to see it, but, um, I didn't, I wasn't perfect raising. Do you regret it? Yeah, I regret, I regret. I remember when Tanner went to the army, um, 语法解析

22:29

He's a deputy back home. Very proud of him. Such an important job. He, you know, a corrections officer just worked at the jail, but still it's, you know, a good job. It's like paid, paid the bills. I was proud of him. We need people who need men to do that. So he said he was going to join the army and he wanted to be a ranger. And I'm just like, you know, you get deployed and I'm thinking, what if, 语法解析

22:57

You know, he, I think it was because I would tell them that average is failing. If you look around, you see the average person. That's not us. That's not what we want to be. So we're not, yes. And people need to work at gas stations and do things, whatever. That's fine. That's, but that's not what we're settled for. So he, he said he wanted to quit. He didn't want to be a deputy more. He wanted to be a ranger because he had more to offer this world. 语法解析

23:23

And I was thinking, was that me who fucked up and said this, that being, just having a regular job was somehow failing? And I just had so many regrets. And I was just like, I told him he's getting ready to go to basic training. And I'm like, I said, Tanner, I'm like, there's nothing wrong with having a regular job, being a family man. And I said, there's nothing, I was wrong. I was wrong to say what I said, raising new kids. And, um, 语法解析

23:55

Because I was thinking about, what if he got deployed and was killed? And it's just like, because of shit I said, trying to make my boys tough, and this is a result? So, yeah, I was like, yeah. I definitely have had regrets over how hard I pushed them. I think it's such a delicate balance to… 语法解析

24:31

give your kids the life that you never had and the life that you worked so hard to be able to afford them with whilst also knowing where most of the important realizations that made you into the sort of person who could provide came about due to restriction and difficulty and, and tough times and, and toil, uh, and a little bit of maybe a bit of resentment and a little bit of, uh, 语法解析

25:00

Yeah. In childhood that galvanized you to sort of do something great with your life. Every single, look, dude, every single parent that I know and even more, tell you what, be fucking grateful that you had your kids in your 20s because if you'd had them now, imagine how much of a differential your lifestyle is materially in terms of resources, in terms of status and notoriety and opportunity and all of this stuff. Yeah. You would be like, 语法解析

25:26

floating out in space. You know, you would have no idea. The total frame of reference would be out of the window. There's not a single dad that I know who has sort of crawled out from the place that they were as a kid and made something of themselves who doesn't have that exact concern about their children. I think it is one of the most common concerns 语法解析

25:49

Ben Francis, he's the guy that founded Gymshark. Gymshark's completely bootstrapped. He still owns 70% of it. Gymshark's worth over, it's nearly $3 billion, a three billion pound company. This guy's like worth like two billion pounds, like $3 billion and he's 31. He's got twin boys, but he grew up like as rough as they come in Birmingham with a granddad that made him go and work in like a clay mine or like a pottery barn or something like that. 语法解析

26:19

And I've asked him this question. I'm like, how do you intend on navigating this one? How do you intend on teaching your kids the lessons that you learned from a very working class grandfather, their great grandfather, whilst also not throwing away the entire reason for working as hard as you did, which was to be able to afford your fucking family the life that you never had. So, you know, first off, I think you did the best that you could. So you need to give yourself some grace with that. And look, 语法解析

26:50

If 50% was like the middle of the bell curve of how much toughness versus easiness you could give kids, I would guess that most kids and most parents are too far on the easy side. I think snowplow parenting, helicopter parenting, gentle parenting, whilst… 语法解析

27:09

noble in its intentions is usually kind of over pattern matched and results in soft entitled adults, narcissistic, soft entitled adults when they grow up. Given the choice between the two sort of being pushed a little bit further on the other side is a very strange kind of gift. I think what would be interesting would be to know 语法解析

27:38

how much of that is actually because of the way that you raised them and how much of that is just your genes. The more that I learn about behavioral genetics, heritability of different traits and so on and so forth. Like this, this should be comforting. As far as I can see, there is no such thing as really getting parenting right. There is only getting it wrong and getting it wrong. Kids are pretty fucking resilient. Like they're really, really tough. 语法解析

28:11

And you see perfectly balanced adults that grew up in horrendous childhood environments. And I think as long as there's no really extreme, well, maybe you would say some of the climbs with the rock were slightly extreme. My point is, I get the sense that if they're made out of the same stuff that you're made out of, they didn't really have a choice whether you made them go up the mountain or not. 语法解析

28:42

I think that there is a lot more built into you. You know, you're talking about consistently running for four decades and thinking about framing that up against what that meant in your childhood. And, you know, this sort of relentlessness that you approach, like even the pod, when you started that, I think it was episode three, two, three, four, something like that. It's now like what? 160, some shit. Uh, like even with that, that's, that's, 语法解析

29:08

not that's a level of work rate that most people don't hold up it's just a minor little area then in the hunting and then in the lifting and then in the bow stuff and then in the running and then in the so you know maybe there is maybe it's contributed but what I would if I could sort of bet a couple of chips on the roulette wheel of a couple of other universes in which you'd approach your kids differently I think they'd be 语法解析

29:37

probably 90%, 80 or 90% of the way there, just with less experience about how to deal with it. And one of the best things you can do for your kids, I think, as a fucking, look at me, spouting nonsense as a non-father. The internet loves when I do this. One of the best things that you can do is set a good example. You can read all of the books about 语法解析

29:58

healthy attachment and child education and socialization and all the rest of it. But they will learn more from the way that you and your wife show up for each other around the dinner table than every lesson that you try and force into them. Like you can top down, try and tell them how they're supposed to behave. This is how you're supposed to treat girls. You don't hit girls and you don't do this and you must hold the door and you got to be this way and be blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, all right, 语法解析

30:20

But then when you're around the dinner table, you're a prick. You look at your phone instead of looking at your wife. Or you ignore her or you don't laugh at her jokes or you guys don't relate well or they never see you be physically affectionate to each other or whatever it is. It's not for me to say that you need to like force a relationship. But the point is, I think that kids learn by seeing a lot more than they get learned by being told. 语法解析

30:41

And that's what you're doing. Even if you hadn't made them go up the mountain, you were like, I'm off to go up the mountain. They'd be like, well, dad's going up the mountain. Like, can I come up the mountain? You know, so… 语法解析

30:50

Yeah. It's a, and, and I was thinking also too, it's not just like what you do, but when you have that mindset about life is competition, um, hard work is, is the, the key, whatever that's, that is impacting how you talk and how you carry yourself. Cause everybody says, says the right thing. And they, they tell their kids what you're supposed to tell your kids. It's like, you 语法解析

31:13

As you said, no, you hold the door for women. You, you know, be respectful. Everybody says the right stuff, but how you carry yourself and then how you, how you talk, not when you're delivering some ultimatum or some direction, but just how you, what's your mindset. And that's when it's not controlled, when it's not, you're not thinking about it. So my mindset was always, 语法解析

31:41

let's do more, perform more, push harder. Like, I guess to your point that even if I wasn't, they were seeing that it's, um, yeah, it's, you know, you talked about Truett, you know, originally, but even for him, it reminded me, your story sort of reminded me of his, like people see him now and they're like, I mean, he's easy to, he gets hate too. Cause he's easy to hate. Definitely. Um, 语法解析

32:09

He's got a lot going for him and that will build some resentment over with some guys. But for him, he lost for years. He didn't miss a day lifting weights for like 14 years. Still hasn't. I started them lifting when they were 14, both him and Tanner. And since that time, he hasn't missed more than a day. So… 语法解析

32:37

It was loss after loss after loss. He's like tiny, not getting big. He, and he mentioned this, we did this, we're doing this video on his pull-ups that, you know, he broke the world record and he's just like, he goes, I don't think he goes, I didn't realize that Tanner was kicking my ass every day as his older brother. 语法解析

32:58

Anytime we'd compete me against him, I would never let the kids win. It was always like, it was always a battle. Always crying. I mean, kicking the basketball down the street. Cause they're so mad. Go get it. Tanner. Uh, I was throwing like football as hard as I could making him catch it. Cause he's a receiver drops it, punches the ground, breaks his hand. So there's like, 语法解析

33:24

All these losses, essentially. So Truett said, I didn't know that. Yeah. I was getting beat by my older brother. I was getting beat by you every day. He goes, I didn't realize Tanner was the biggest beast, one of the biggest beasts he's ever met. And he goes, and I didn't know you were who you were. I thought he said, I just thought I was weak and a loser. Yeah. 语法解析

33:47

I didn't know that I was going against these people that were making me. So people see him now and I'm like, if you could see him back when he's 14 years old and when he's in high school, he was five foot, like 90 pounds, got cut from the basketball team, even though he was really good and most skilled because he was too small. 语法解析

34:09

They don't see all that they see now. And they're just like, oh, what is he on steroids? And it's just like, no, this is, this is a kid who hasn't missed a day in the gym for 14 years and trains for hours every day and doesn't drink, doesn't do anything, but get enough rest to perform every single day. This is what you get. 语法解析

34:32

when you're that dedicated. But people, they want to ignore that part. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. If your sleep's not dialed, taking ages to nod off, you're waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous' sleep packs, how did I miss both of those, are here to help. They're not your typical knock-you-out supplement overloaded with melatonin, just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized as well. 语法解析

35:02

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35:25

There's a very special type of distaste and envy that the internet has toward certain types of successful men. 语法解析

35:55

Uh, I still haven't kind of fully worked out what it is. Um, it's kind of like the inverse of pretty privilege that, uh, girls have. Yeah. The girls get, but you know, dude, chicks do not have it easy, uh, around other women. Like if you're an attractive woman, you better watch your back because holy fuck, they're coming for you. Yeah. Like they are coming for you hard, but in the same way, uh, 语法解析

36:21

Men, masculine men, guys that certainly seem competent, especially if you're young. If you're a bit older… 语法解析

36:30

I think guys are a tiny little bit less threatened. I think a lot of this, you know, from both sides just comes down to mating. That if you're a hot woman, then you with your hand in your boyfriend's hand thinks you better not be fucking looking at her. Like, was she wearing a skirt that short for? And the same thing in reverse. And here's an interesting stat. The only, one of the most predictive things 语法解析

36:58

traits around enhancing attractiveness is masculinity measured by muscularity. So if you're a guy and you are a five out of 10 and you get yourself in the gym for a decade, you're probably going to be like a six or a seven, you know, assuming that you don't fuck your face up in the process by dropping weights on it. Basically, there was this fascinating study done by a guy called David Putz. And 语法解析

37:24

He got women to rate the attractiveness of men, these images of men, and he got men to rate the same men as how likely do you think it is that you would beat this man in a fight? Okay. So you have a female rating of attractiveness and male rating of formidability, right? And then 12 months later, they brought the men that were the photos of 语法解析

37:52

into the study and they said, how many sexual partners have you had over the last 12 months? The female rating of attractiveness had zero predictive power. The male rating of formidability almost exactly predicted their most, their level of like sexual partners. So what it seems is formidability, especially as sort of shown by that 语法解析

38:19

typically masculine and this isn't the only way to you know get into a woman's pants or whatever it's not the only thing you know cool artsy heroin looking fucking guitar player it can be hot too but there's exceptions typically this seems to be one of those things and I wonder whether if you look at someone like a truant who is a young kid who's full of energy kind of doesn't give a fuck who is only going to get better and 语法解析

38:44

Like in some ways it's inspiring, but it's only inspiring if you're remotely close to his level. Right. Because if you're looking at someone who doesn't have anything special about them, not in the same way that Usain Bolt has something special about like he's godly. Right. And he's in a sport that feels a bit untouchable. Yeah. Everybody's tried to do a pull up. Mm hmm. Right. Everybody's thought about running a marathon slowly in jeans. Maybe, maybe not. Um, yeah. 语法解析

39:14

I wonder whether the closeness that people feel and the fact that there's nothing ostensibly special there, it throws into very harsh contrast. Well, why is that not me? Why can he do that and not me? And the easiest place to go to would be privileged upbringing, silver spoon. 语法解析

39:37

unfair assistance, enhanced genetics, enhanced hormones, cheating with form, whatever. I don't know what the criticisms are. 语法解析

39:49

But it helps people to close the gap between somebody they would want to be like and themselves. Yeah. They reckon with it. Yeah. It's a, you know, that's, it's kind of a double or short because you, nobody can identify or relate to Usain Bolt because he's got that God given talent, but. 语法解析

40:10

And it's, it's kind of been what I've used also is like, you can come from nothing, a regular job and had success. So then it kind of, it puts a pressure on other regular guys. You've got no excuse. Yeah. And so both Truett and I have benefited from that. It's just like, he looks like a regular guy running in jeans, but he's doing these incredible things. And then, so it does allow him, because if you look at his followers, like, 语法解析

40:38

It resonates more with regular people because it gives them hope that, oh, maybe I can be better. Then like an elite Olympic athlete doesn't have near the followers. Truett, who is like a run fluencer is what, you know, they, some of these elites say this new craze of marathon excitement and these run groups and all this. It's just like, they don't deserve it because they're not, they're not elite like I am, but they're, 语法解析

41:04

because they can relate to the average person, that's where they get the power. So yes, you get criticized by the regular people who feel threatened, like, okay, now, so I'm expected to do shit like this too, but you also benefit from it because. Well, just to sit on that for a little bit longer, I think it's a really, really good point that this sort of narcissism of small differences, the fact that you don't 语法解析

41:29

you haven't come from a different place, you're not in a sport that's untouchable or unreachable. And there's two ways to respond to that. One is, holy fuck, this normal person did something extraordinary. That means I can too. The other one is, this normal person did something extraordinary. That means that I am expected to too. And the expected to thing is, 语法解析

41:49

shows you all of the places that you're falling behind because you know that if not for my discipline and my consistency, there could have gone I, right? That could have been me in principle, but it's not. 语法解析

42:04

And when you get to the why question… Yeah, that's a problem. You have to face facts that… Well, because I didn't not miss a training session for more than two days in a row for 14 hours. You're not going to like the why. Yeah, it's an ugly realization because the realization is boring. Yeah. And the realization points the finger at you. And I see this in myself, dude. I see, you know… 语法解析

42:25

especially when I was a bit younger, this fucking bitterness that used to come out in me, and it still does now sometimes in my more juvenile, less equanimous moments if I've not been fucking meditating enough. I'm like, fuck that guy. Like, he had this thing, or this was unfair. That's not it. 语法解析

42:43

And it's just ego. It's just, it's just you trying to protect yourself from this weird status game. Because previously we knew we were in 30 people pods in 150 person tribe and you knew the best hunter and the best everything else. And you were probably not that bad at a couple of things, which meant that you had some value compared to the small little group. Exactly. Whereas now we're, 语法解析

43:06

even though we know that we're not friends with Truett Haynes, uh, we don't know that we're not supposed to compare ourselves to him. So our like status mapping ability has just spread out across the entire planet, which is why so many people feel inferior. Yeah. Um, and you can take it as inspirational. You can take it as a threat. And, uh, 语法解析

43:25

I see why, I see why people take it as a threat. And then if you've got fuck you energy and you're doing it in glasses, like, you know what I mean? If you're going to twist the knife a little bit, people are going to say, go fuck yourself. Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's been crazy to see. I mean, and it's not like nobody's immune to being criticized or nobody's immune to the effect of being criticized. You know, nobody likes to read the shit people say. So, and he's no different, but I just would, uh, 语法解析

43:52

I would just encourage people to take a look and think about it. It's like, I mean, cause I can think when I first started training and I was bow hunting and having success and I was running marathons and I remember the, the old guard or the gatekeepers would say, Oh yeah. So you have to, now you have to run a marathon to kill an elk. And I'm like, 语法解析

44:12

Nobody ever said that. I'm just, I'm just showing you what I do. You know, you can do whatever you want, but it like put this expectation there. And, you know, and now when people look at, at Truett, I just want to remind people that there was a time when he, I could help him up on the pull-up bar. He was not getting a pull-up done. He had new skinny fat. You've heard that term. Uh-huh. 语法解析

44:35

You couldn't get any more skinny fat than my boys were. They were just skinny, regular young boys, skinny arms, two bodies. It's just like nothing special, but that's where it starts. That's where everybody starts. I've just realized that the world's marathon record for wearing Crocs just got broken this weekend. Yep. 语法解析

45:01

Fourth time's a charm. That was the UK's Tommy Trees mindset as he made his fourth attempt to put his name in the Guinness Book of World Records, and finally he came out successful. Sunday's London Marathon, Trees put his Crocs into sport mode and clocked a 2.48.48. Pretty fast. Surpassing the previous record for the fastest marathon wearing foam Crocs. 41 new world records. Over the past year, the record for the fastest marathon in Crocs was broken four times. This is really heating up. The London Race, Mark Trees' 12th marathon and followed three failed attempts to… 语法解析

45:29

break the fastest marathon dressed as santa claus which stands at 233 23 and uh he's also got 229 41 when he's not in crocs uh so he pivoted from uh dressing as santa to doing it in in crocs so i think crocs and jeans is that's the perfect blend they what's happening with his what's happening with his jeans the marathon thing what's he doing next um 语法解析

45:53

Next, oh, he's doing a last man standing race here in Austin. Okay. That's the next place. Next race. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that's, that's a 4.2 mile loop every hour for as long as you can do it. Yep. So that's, but Guinness won't approve a jeans marathon. Why? I have no idea. Hmm. Cause Truett tried to do that too. And I tried to do like, I was going to run a marathon with a bow. Okay. Like just run with it. Yep. They wouldn't approve that either. 语法解析

46:22

So I don't know why, but they'll approve dressed as Santa wearing Crocs. A guy just, this other guy in Boston, Jordan Maddox, he ran in dressed as a banana. 语法解析

46:36

It's at the world record. Okay. Yeah. As a fruit. Okay. So, but they won't agree. Oh, he broke the banana and the fruit world records. Like it could be the quickest banana, but an orange beat you. I don't know. Actually, I don't know. I don't know. I break this down by fruit type. I don't know if it's banana, fruit, oranges. I think the banana, as far as fruits go, the banana is probably pretty aerodynamic. Yeah. You know, you want to be pretty, you know, slicing through the air. It's a good choice. You don't want to be a pear. This is real slowing you down. No. No. 语法解析

47:04

Or a watermelon. No, also bad. Yeah. 语法解析

47:08

I don't know. It's, it's fascinating, dude, watching this thing unfold. And obviously after getting to hang at you with you and kids at your house and get to meet everybody and sort of watching the last two years, it's been a kind of unsurprising, you know, to be honest. It's unsurprising or surprising? Unsurprising. Oh, totally unsurprising. It's like the least surprising thing that could have happened. Yeah. I'd love to see it. I mean, um, yeah, true. It's doing good as far as like he's selling his sponsorships and he's doing like road to sub two 30 or, 语法解析

47:37

or diatron so you know it's like a weekly video series so yeah he's i love to see it what was watching him do that the most recent polyp record like um yeah i mean it's i just remember 语法解析

47:57

It's a big ask. 10,000 pull-ups. You got two contact points, basically, your hands. That's a lot of pressure, a lot of reps, a lot of little stuff that can go wrong, ligaments, tendons. Goggins tried it a few times before he got it. And one time, I think live on Good Morning American, got injured. So did it live some other time and got injured. So there's no guarantee you're going to make it unassisted. 语法解析

48:25

unscathed through a challenge 24 hours of pull-ups but for Truett I mean he's so dedicated and obsessed he trained so hard it's like and when he got it I just you know that night I just remember saying you know good job not surprised this is this is what you're supposed to do this is 语法解析

48:49

If you weren't doing shit like this, then I'd be like, what the fuck's going on? So this is what I expected. This is the expectation that's always been there. I told the boys and my daughter too, for that matter, but you guys aren't normal. I'm not, normal isn't okay. Average isn't okay. You're supposed to be doing stuff like this. 语法解析

49:15

That's why we're here. So it's like, I said, good job, but yeah, I'm not surprised. Expected job. Yeah, that was it. He did what he's supposed to do. It's like I said, dude, it was not, it was, it was like the least surprising thing. Yeah. It happened. It is. I think it's cool that, 语法解析

49:34

I think it's cool that it's something that no human has ever done. He did 10,000. No human's ever been to 10,000 in 24 hours on pull-ups. So it's, uh, and as you mentioned earlier, anybody who's tried to do a pull-up fucking five pull-ups is hard. Yeah. Five pull-ups is hard for, for me. It's like 10,000. 语法解析

49:56

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50:12

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50:36

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50:57

Right now, you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first box by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modernwisdom. You've said, I've seen you say that you think love is the most powerful form of motivation. What's the role of love and passion in this? A lot of what we're talking about so far is 语法解析

51:23

It's like aggression. It's gripping some resentment in there. There's, you know, sort of wanting to prove people wrong. And then you talk about love and passion. Where does that come from? Um, yeah, I don't, I think I might, I might say passion, love. Sometimes the, the saying I have with love is like, uh, love makes me strong. Hate makes me unstoppable. So I still lean for whatever reason, uh, 语法解析

51:50

I am motivated by hate, by people talking shit, by people not believing in me. If somebody supports you, I mean, that's great. I don't want to say I don't give a fuck, but hate is what pushes me. Hate and people discounting what I've done or my effort or my goals, that, that's what drives me. I don't know why. But love is great. Support. I appreciate support. But I just think that, you know, 语法解析

52:25

How I will, you said love and passion. So passion. Yes. Because in, in my book, I talk about outliers and, you know, you're one of them, but what, what makes somebody an outlier in my mind is this passion, passion for this thing. What's this thing? What's this thing they do for you? It's just, you know, thought provoking intellectual discussions, like peeling back the onions, figuring out, you know, modern wisdom. Um, 语法解析

52:54

And you're the best at it, right? So whatever you had this passion to learn, to learn more about human behavior and the brain and the body and sexual attractiveness and different things like that, that's passion drove that, right? So I think passion is what sets people apart. Love and hate, that can go either way. It's interesting thinking about 语法解析

53:19

How hate is a better motivator, a bigger motivator for you, because it puts anybody that wants to bring you down in a very awkward position that they have to compliment you in order to not drive you further. They have to say something nice if they want to slow you down. Yeah. I mean, but when somebody says, you know, I mean, people say, yeah, you know, love you. It's just like, is that real? But hate. 语法解析

53:43

hate that's usually pretty real it's real yeah that's a good point that's a good point people are flippant with their love but they're not that flippant with their hate if they hate you that that means something that's deep that's why it's like i think that's why that drives me that's fascinating yeah i've never i've never considered that uh maybe because it's sort of 语法解析

54:07

socially desirable to sort of say that you love something typically you don't want to be seen as a hater all that much yeah uh that there is maybe more emotional activation in someone's hatred than there is in someone's love and uh you're like holy fuck like i i got to this person yeah i did got to this person yeah i so that's where i get i'm more fueled by that i i this is one of the things that i one of many things that i learned spending a couple of days with you 语法解析

54:33

uh having uh must be nice written in the gym and poser written on the rock um and i've you know i've mentioned this on the show a bunch of times like huh 语法解析

54:46

Like, why pose a… I asked you about this and you explained that 72 pounds is 72 pounds and there's nothing you can do about it. And you can say what you want, but come and carry this fucking rock up the hill and see if you think that it's all for show after that. I didn't realize until now that that's because you were… 语法解析

55:07

Fuel way more by people's distaste than people support. Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's that if somebody's telling you how good you are all the time, for one, you can start to believe it. And then to me, if I'm hearing that I'm losing my edge, I'm like, I don't want to hear that shit. 语法解析

55:27

That's, I appreciate it, but I want, I want an edge. I want, I want to know why you don't think I'm, so that's what, that's what poser. That's why it's so powerful to me. I like when people say, oh yeah, fucking cam poser. Yeah. I've been thinking about this for a while. I haven't written it out yet. So I'm going to try and play with this idea live with you. Um, there's a quote from Victor Frankl that says when a man can't find a deep sense of meaning, they distract themselves with pleasure. 语法解析

55:56

And his point is, I think, that if your life is bereft of a higher purpose, you look at hedonism and short-term gratification and stuff like that. I think there's an inverse, and I think that you and maybe me as well are good examples of the inverse, that when a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning. And that if your day-to-day experience of life is, 语法解析

56:28

I don't know, just sort of joy and like play and ease and fun and lightness. If that's just not what you grew up being taught or that's not sort of your psychological set point or disposition, or it just doesn't come as easily to you as it does maybe to other people. Uh, I, I think I seen a lot of the people that are like overachievers, uh, in the, 语法解析

56:53

Winning the marshmallow test of life, just permanently delaying gratification. I think I see that as quite a common thing. 语法解析

57:01

archetype that how easily do you switch off smoke weed and play Xbox? It's like fucking impossibly. Like it doesn't happen. And how much sort of play and ease and grace and joy, you know, how easy does sort of enjoyment and lightness come? It's like, you know, sometimes things are kind of heavy and I apply pressure to myself or even when it's not needed and sometimes I struggle to give myself a break and so on and so forth. 语法解析

57:23

So I think that, yeah, that when a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning, you know, instead of just having a fun Saturday morning with the kids. It's like we're taking a big rock and a couple of small rocks and we're going up that fucking hill again. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. When you were saying that, I was thinking about, yeah, I don't know. It's I'm happiest when I'm suffering. 语法解析

57:52

So I've heard people say like, they said this mostly about Goggins. I don't know. You've talked to him too, but it's just like asking him, it's like, are you ever happy? It's just like for him, he's happy when he's miserable. So it's like, well, whose definition of happy you're talking about is you're happy eating fucking donuts, watching TV. That sounds miserable to me. So it's like the people that get these words and they're like, are you happy? Are you enjoying yourself? Do you ever have fun? It's like, 语法解析

58:23

running up that mountain is fun. That's what I like. So yeah, it's a, when you're talking about pleasure and passion, I was trying to, to weigh that out there on, on what is, what is happiness for people, you know? And also another thing, um, I see you put up like 3 million subscribers. So it's like, is that what type of, does that do anything for you? Is that, 语法解析

58:50

I mean, cause you'll never let off. You're like, okay, I made it. I'm good. I got 3 million. That was my goal. But you put that up. Like sometimes people will put up things like, like I made it like, this is my, I'm here, but I've arrived to you. That's just, what is that? 语法解析

59:09

A benchmark? Just another little destination, I suppose. What is the goal? Do you have a goal? Not in terms of sort of money or follower count or anything like that. I think I did originally, even though I didn't have a number in mind, I think I wanted to become really proficient at something. I wanted to be able to say that I was… 语法解析

59:35

Like I'd reached something close to mastery or competence. And I was competent at this thing and people respected that and recognized that, especially people that I respected and that I admired. How do you, is that a measurable that tells you that? No. 语法解析

59:50

Because some people like look at, I haven't looked at where your podcast is on the charts today. Okay. You know, so I'm, I like measurables. Like I like, I need to do this many miles, this fast at this pace. I want, you know, this many downloads to the pod. It's like, I love measurables. And I think the, my, 语法解析

01:00:10

my boys have kind of taken on that. I love that too. I think it's a good way to bring some control into a messy world. Um, I, I have just tried to sort of put a bit of a speed limiter on how much I rely on it because I, at least for me, it is not the most important metric. The most important metric is something that's pretty intangible, which is how much did I connect with the guests? How much did it impact the people that were listening? And, um, 语法解析

01:00:39

A lot of the time, the episodes that do, sometimes the episodes that do the most plays are the ones that are the most impactful. And they certainly reach the most people, right? But I don't know how, you know, deeply that really changes people. And I'm at the stage now, at least with this particular art form, where I'm trying to really, really connect with the person I'm 语法解析

01:01:02

sitting opposite and I'm really, really trying to understand why they are the way they are or what it is that people should understand or learn about them. And none of that is going to appear on a YouTube analytics spreadsheet. It simply doesn't. And the 语法解析

01:01:21

The measurement stuff is good and it ensures that you're at least keeping an eye on one or a few things. I'm the sort of person, I think, that would become very obsessed by it. And I need to be aware of that and I need to account for that because it's not all that matters. You know, it would be something else. A lot of people trade intensity. 语法解析

01:01:47

In the very beginning, they use intensity, but the thing that keeps you going is your longevity, right? That's what we said, the consistency thing. And they trade longevity for intensity. 语法解析

01:01:56

And if you're just chase, chase, chase, chasing the numbers, you're able to see the immediate effect of your work. This is the same with powerlifters, let's say. So you're a powerlifter in the gym and you're pushing yourself RPE 9, RPE 9.5, RPE 10 over and over again. You're not periodizing. You're not taking weeks off. And you're going, dude, my numbers are going up. I'm fucking crushing. I'm crushing. I'm crushing it. Snap. Yeah. 语法解析

01:02:19

You go, okay, well, what was the goal? Really, what was the goal? The goal was to get the numbers to go up, but the goal was to get the numbers to go up steadily over 10 years. And all that you can see is such a short amount of time in front of you. And I think that you should be careful about trading longevity for intensity because, and at least with the show for me personally, 语法解析

01:02:42

The more fired up I am when I wake up on a morning, and I think this is just the best judgment of sort of where your life's at at the moment and how much joy you're getting out of life. When you wake up, when your alarm goes off on a morning, how excited are you to get out of bed? I think that's a pretty good rubric for how's life going right now. It's not going to be like that forever. You know, it's going to be better and worse and sometimes really worse and sometimes even better. Yeah. 语法解析

01:03:04

And if I wake up on a morning and I go, fuck yeah, I get to speak to Cam today. That's really exciting. Tomorrow I've got Will Storr, science of storytelling, fucking awesome author. He did the status game. I'm fucking fired. I can't wait. And then there was periods in the show where I wake up and I'm like, oh, who am I talking to today? Oh, yeah, that'll be all right. Maybe the episode would be great. Maybe it would even be a really great performance, but if it didn't speak to me. So very much in that sort of, I don't know, 语法解析

01:03:34

post-growth thing uh where i've already got at least with regards to the show so much further than i ever thought i was going to yeah fucking move continents and came over to this this new country and made all of these friends and you know have lifted myself out of a 语法解析

01:03:55

area of the UK that's… It was literally only famous for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in the UK, and then it lost that, so it didn't even have that anymore. I… 语法解析

01:04:07

I've already won. I've already won. So trying to find ease, grace, joy, and just seeing how that works for a little bit, because I've very much applied the sort of Cam Haynes Goggins mindset for a while. And I can totally see me turning around in six months or two years or whatever and being like, all right, time to really fucking grip the bar again. I'm just seeing, okay, what happens if I try and have a little bit more play with this? And what happens if I go back in the other direction? 语法解析

01:04:33

Yeah, I was curious about that just because we're so inundated with these measurables every day with the follower count, the likes, the, you know, when you start getting into podcasts, then it is a downloads because in that affects what you can ask for advertisers. And that's all they give a fuck about. They don't care about what type of connection you had with your guests. They're like, okay, cool. How many downloads was it? You know, so it's like we get kind of roped into this, to this trap of, you 语法解析

01:05:00

everything is measurable and it's like, you're not successful unless you're here. And then when you're here, you better be here. So I was just kind of curious how you, how you navigated that just because it is, it's life now. It is. And it's, and it's easy. It's an easy, like everybody loves, like, how do I compare? So it's an easy comparison. That's why you look at the list on like whose podcast is highest rated. Right. But, uh, 语法解析

01:05:28

I think Joe's done a really good job of this too. It's like, and I want to kind of adopt, well, your mindset is very similar now. That's why he can have on somebody like me. 语法解析

01:05:40

Who, when I first went on there, nobody knew who I was, but Joe doesn't care. He's just like, am I interested in this person? Most podcasts are like, let's go with the biggest guest that's going to give me the biggest… 语法解析

01:06:00

like disembodied, disconnected successes. Or you can look back on something and be like, yeah, that was me. Like that was really me. I put myself out there. And there's some people, let's say that you're in a sport, right? Let's say that you're a powerlifter or something like that. You want to be the best in the world. You want to be the best in the world. It's not about… 语法解析

01:06:20

Manifest manifesting your fucking artistic expression on the lifting platform. Pick the fucking weight up. Okay. You know what I mean? Can you pick it up or not? Can you pick it up or not? And the goal is to pick the fucking weight up. And however you get there is how you do it. Now, you may feel transcendent. You may feel like this is you really sort of actualizing your potential and doing it in the world. 语法解析

01:06:38

But my goal is to look back on this period of life and look back on, you know, the library of work that I do and go, yeah, like that was really me. That was exactly where I was. I really tried to be open and honest with myself. It's a selfish project. And I think that the best ones are, and not everyone can do this. Not everyone can be selfish with what it is that they get to do for art. Because if you're a trader, right? 语法解析

01:07:03

Oh, please tell me about how your artistic fucking expression helped you lose money on that USD JPY trade. No, you have a very, very tightly defined outcome. But in some other writing books and stuff like that, you could write a book. 语法解析

01:07:19

It would sell tons and tons of copies, but you weren't connected to. And you'd get loads of success. How do you feel after that? And for some people, they may take a ton of well-being and satisfaction and joy and all the rest of the stuff, meaning from it just being successful. They just wanted the success. And I get the sense that maybe the first few books or the first few projects or the first few businesses or the first few years of the podcast or whatever might be playing that game. 语法解析

01:07:47

But then after a while you go, okay, well kind of satiated my desire for status and, and, and maybe money or being recognized by all of these people. I had this, I made this joke with regards to the show that I kind of had the five infinity stones from Manos's glove. Yeah. I had Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Alain de Botton from the school of life, Naval Ravikant and Joe Rogan as like the five people that I wanted. And I 语法解析

01:08:14

I've got four of them. And Joe texted after the last episode and was like, don't forget, we need to do an episode on modern wisdom. So I'm like, right. Okay. Well, once I do that, if all it was, was about when you're done being, I've got gold medalist syndrome. Why do you go from that? And that's a genuine question. And that's still something that's true. Every time that you complete a new goal, you have to ask yourself, okay, well, what is my life now that I've completed this thing that I was working toward for a long time? And that's the danger of goals, right? You know, James Clear got this right in Atomic Habits where he said, 语法解析

01:08:43

You don't rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems. So you just need to iterate and keep going and keep going. And it helps with longevity. But there is no growth without goals because you need a goal to give you a fucking direction to move in. Or else you're just like growing outwardly, but not moving toward a particular thing. It's not great for the way that motivation works, dopamine, positive reinforcement, all that stuff. So again, it's this tension. It's this balance between the two. But I get the sense, and it'll be interesting, you know, in a year's time, a couple of years time when we chat in your episode 300. Hmm. 语法解析

01:09:13

For me to go, okay, and what's driving you now? Like, how do you feel about the show? And I would guess that you're going to say, you know what it is, like, actually, I'm kind of taking my eye off the ball with regards to the metrics a little bit. I'm really interested in… 语法解析

01:09:28

having conversations with underground. I'm really platforming people that, you know, no one knows about, or I've really enjoyed delving into this area of whatever. And, uh, I think that is a realization that lots of people come to. I think they come to it maybe with even raising kids that you think, I'm going to get the kid into the hub, Harvard's Ivy league university. I'm going to get them to be the captain of the, this team, or they're going to be the top in this particular pursuit or whatever. And then, 语法解析

01:09:55

After a while you go, I just kind of want to have fun. I just want to be happy. And I thought that I could get them there through that. But you kind of need to, it's far easier to achieve it 语法解析

01:10:08

than it is to get rid of it. Yeah. Because if you haven't achieved it, it's always in the back of your mind as, wow, you know, that might have been the answer. Right. So you need to do it to see that it isn't it. Like Naval says, the reason to win the game is to be rid of the game. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one. It's like, you know, you want to be successful. You want, I like, I think when I was, 语法解析

01:10:35

you were kind of explaining that the best feedback is when somebody says they really enjoyed whatever discussion you had or, um, 语法解析

01:10:44

And they're not talking about how many people listen to it. You know, it's just how it impacted them. And it's like, I'm not, I'm not great at quote podcasting, which is why I do the lift run shoot with my guests to make, to cause I can connect on that. And then that hopefully helps the conversation. But yeah, it's a, it's tough. It's tough sitting down and really, 语法解析

01:11:11

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, maybe it's not tough. Maybe it's just, we don't do this. Maybe we, how often do you sit down and just talk to somebody? I never do it. Like, not like this. So maybe it's like, maybe you can learn a lot just by having a discussion and maybe a podcast is an excuse that we'd never, we wouldn't, we wouldn't do this normally. Cause I'm not going to be like, call up one of my buddies and say, Hey, you want to go talk for a couple hours? I was like, 语法解析

01:11:38

nobody would say sure it sounds like you're saying that you find sort of doing the podcast is one of the more or most difficult things that it is that you do before we continue if you've been feeling a bit sluggish your testosterone levels might be the problem they play a huge role in your energy your focus and your performance but most people have no idea what theirs are or what to do if something's off which is why i partnered with function because i 语法解析

01:12:03

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01:12:26

a clear path to making your life better. And right now, you can get the exact same blood panels that I get by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. So what are the most difficult things that you've done physically? You've got this long, illustrious career of doing fucking stupid things to yourself. Yeah. What rank in the top few? Oh, it's the long race. You know, the… 语法解析

01:12:55

Well, this race I've coming up is 250 miles. I've done 240 miles. I've been 200 miles, a hundred miles as hard. Um, marathons are hard when you're pushing a lot of hard hunts where you're just miserable, you know, in the snow, long hunt Kodiak Island for 12 days. So it's, um, though, but those are, those they're not predictable, but you know what you're getting into. 语法解析

01:13:24

You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you know it's going to be terrible and you're going to be miserable probably for a while, but that's part of the deal. That's just like, that's why you sign up is that test. I'm trying to test myself. I want to see if I'm tough enough to do this. So those, when I think of hard, it's those. Are there any in particular that come to mind from the Hunt's or the Rice's perspective? Yeah, I mean… 语法解析

01:13:52

I've been on, I don't know, a lot of hard hunts in the mounds, just being soaking wet. I mean, one time me and Roy were sheep hunting. Roy's my friend who fell, but obviously before he fell, we were sheep hunting. Miserable weather conditions, super steep. 语法解析

01:14:11

we were blood trailing this Ram and it wasn't a good shot. So it's like, uh, it was going to be a long, hard blood trail to kind of decipher and get this animal. And it got dark. And then a grizzly was kind of circling the tents. And, uh, I was just like, I don't give a fuck. I'm going to bed. I'm not, I'm, I'm not even, I don't care about this bear. I don't know what's going to, whatever. Went so tired, just went to bed. That's, that's being miserable. Um, 语法解析

01:14:41

On Kodiak, you know, you get dropped off. And I remember in my book, Backcountry Bowhunting, the pilot like wrote down the day he's supposed to come back and pick us up on his jeans with a pin. 语法解析

01:14:54

So it's like, hopefully he doesn't wash those jeans. He's going to come back in what, 12 days, two weeks to get us. And then this is first week in November. So it's pouring down rain every day. Kodiak is just South, South of the mainland there. And it's, it's just miserable every day. You're wet. It's just miserable. So yeah. Then if you talk about the races, you're going the long races, you're, 语法解析

01:15:23

So in Moab 240, I think I slept for about, I don't know, I can't remember now. It's been a few years, but two to four hours and it took me 79 hours to finish a race. So over three days and slept, you know, maybe four hours total. So that when… 语法解析

01:15:41

you know what it feels like to get a good night's rest. So it's like nothing feels better if it seems like. So on the opposite of that, when all you want to do is sleep, but you have to keep pushing for 240 miles, that seems overwhelming. So to just to build a muster up the strength to still take another step where every step is an effort. And so if you think when I go running, 语法解析

01:16:12

Every mile is 2000 steps. So if I'm doing 200, you know, so it's 500,000 steps, 500,000 steps roughly in every one is an effort. It's tough. That hurts. 语法解析

01:16:27

So those experiences stand out. The first guy I ever had on the podcast, episode one, that people should not go back and listen to. But it's an interesting episode. It's a guy called Stu Morton who was training to row the Atlantic solo. So this is the Talisker whiskey race. It's a pretty common thing. But it's very extreme. You go from… 语法解析

01:16:51

I think the coast of Portugal to kind of the Caribbean. And the interesting thing with that is that 语法解析

01:17:00

people that do it in groups of two or three or four are really no quicker than the person that does it on their own because for every additional person you need a bigger boat and more supplies and another person which is more drag yeah so everybody kind of nets out at the same pace you can go at now obviously i guess uh physically it must be a little workload probably a little easier but uh 语法解析

01:17:23

And I remember speaking to him and I can't, he's like something like 14 million or strokes or something he needed to do to get him. So it's just 14 million. Yeah. You go across that thing. It's so funny when you break down races, like 200 miles into five, like it's 500,000 steps. Yeah. You got to take 500,000 steps. Yeah. And, uh, it's so hilarious when that happens. I, you know, cause most people are like their goal is 10,000 steps a day and that's a good day. Okay. Yeah. 语法解析

01:17:50

500,000. Yeah. I love the, uh, I love the idea of these backyard ultras. It was the dude from the Barkley marathon that invented it. Right. Yeah. Laz. Yeah. And, uh, just his insight that he hated the fact that sometimes people won. 语法解析

01:18:12

Yeah. He wanted to race when no one won. Yeah. Like everybody loses. Everybody loses at this race. There's just some people that lose less than others. Yeah. Barkley, there's no finisher sometimes, but the backyards, there's always going to be one person who outlasts the other. So that also called last man standing is kind of what they're called. But, uh, yeah, it's, they still don't beat the race though. 语法解析

01:18:36

No, I mean, the race is still there. It's just, you needed somebody else to go with you to go to the next level. Yeah. So the race never loses. You never, never really win the race. You just outlast the other man or woman. But, uh, yeah, those fascinating, isn't it? That how long can you run four miles an hour? It's crazy is now there's guys who have went 400 miles. 语法解析

01:19:05

Do you know this? No. 450 miles. That's the current record for this thing? Wow. Yeah. So, God, what would that, so that'd have to be a hundred and some hours. How many days is that? That's over four days with never getting more than, so if you finish and say 50 minutes, you get 10 minutes before you have to be on the start line. So never getting more than 10 minutes of rest. 语法解析

01:19:33

um, at any one time. What's the sort of pace that people are doing? Cause you could do eight miles an hour, right? You can move at eight miles an hour and get done in half an hour. Yeah, you could. Um, but for how long, you know, so the thing with these is the more you break your body down, the less distance you're going to be able to go. If you run fast, you're stretching intensity, longevity, your muscles out, your, which stretching muscles out is essentially breaking them down over time. Um, 语法解析

01:20:01

So, yeah, it's like finding that sweet spot. I think Courtney, she's won one of those before. And I think she was doing her laps in about 50 or 52 minutes. So just got, if you get eight minutes, get a little food in, sit down for a sec, the back on the line. I'm sure it's going to do one of these. Yeah. In jeans. Ah, shit. I don't know. I told him, I'm like, I mean, he needs a win. Like if, if you had, 语法解析

01:20:35

he hasn't won a race. So it's like, he's yes, he's went viral in Boston and Austin marathon, Eugene. He just, you know, a lot of new stories and he does have the world record in the pull-ups. That's all great. I said, but you need a win. You need to be come across, break that tape. Cause I, you haven't had a win yet. So you show me a win. That's the goal. What's your perspective on genetics, pedigree, genetics, 语法解析

01:21:07

uh, talent and hard work and how all of these things fit together? Um, yeah, I mean, we always, a joke that true. It always joke. He got shitty genetics. That's why he had to overcome his genetics because really, I mean, I don't have, I have never thought I've, I've had great genetics. If I had great genetics, I would have been able to play college football for a while. And, uh, so I've, I was said, you know, I've just, 语法解析

01:21:36

Either you're average or obsessed has kind of been my thing. It's just like I had if I didn't want to be average, I had to be obsessed. So I just put it tight. It all into hard work. When I see the boys, I do see. 语法解析

01:21:51

They have some genetic advantage for sure. But what do genetic advantages give you if you don't capitalize on them? Not much, right? So they've just both done a good job of capitalizing on whatever gifts they've had. And then Truett is definitely maximizing them. Yeah, it's weird with, I guess, talent. 语法解析

01:22:20

something like motivation or enthusiasm and consistency or discipline. Because at the very beginning, no matter how talented you are, you haven't spent enough time and attention to unlock that talent. Now, sure, you begin the race a little bit further ahead than the other guy that's also starting. But the most virtuoso pianist ever, the first time that they sat down at 语法解析

01:22:47

they fucking sucked. So even if they had all of the raw materials to learn very, very quickly, this insight that you kind of unlock your own potential, you unlock your own talent through the only thing that matters, which is the consistency. Now I will say, do you know who Craig Jones is? Yeah. Yeah. He's a… Craig may be the most, he may be the biggest outlier, I think, in the entire world of sort of elite sports in that he's 语法解析

01:23:17

He doesn't train consistently. He doesn't have a strength and conditioning routine. He doesn't care about his body or what he puts in it. He sometimes cares about what he puts his body in. And he, as far as I can see, is a professional partier who still is probably top five grapplers on the planet. And, you know, Nicky Rod, who trains here at B-Team in Austin, will… 语法解析

01:23:45

Eat, sleep, lift, train, recover, study tape, do all of the things. And Craig will roll back in from a session with a cigarette in his hand and still give him as good of a run for his money as anyone and oftentimes win. And that… 语法解析

01:24:04

In some ways, it's just like really fucking cool. But in other ways, it must just be so disheartening if you're in that world. Yeah. No, for sure. When I hear that story, what I think about is how great could he be being dedicated. Put the cocaine down. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the… 语法解析

01:24:20

Because he's comparing himself to, yes, they're elites, but could he be a legend? Yeah, could he be the best? Yeah. He's a legend in certain disciplines that just not… Yeah, but could he be the best ever? You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I don't know, because Gordon Ryan… 语法解析

01:24:37

does he live pretty clean? I think, yeah. Apart from when he's injured. But even with that, there's a degree of commitment during your injury. If your stomach's upset and you kind of got to focus on yourself. But yeah, I think for a lot of people, what they end up realizing is it doesn't really matter how talented I am. The consistency and the hard work really is the only thing 语法解析

01:25:07

solution. It's the only pathway I have to sort of capitalize on this stuff. And I think that's one of the reasons, again, why somebody who largely is pretty untalented 语法解析

01:25:16

is such a trigger for a lot of people because there's two ways you could look at it and you could say, holy fuck, like there's nothing special about them. Why did they get that? Holy fuck. There's nothing special about them. There's nothing special about me either. That means that I too can do it. I could make it. Yeah. Yeah. Because what people want, I think a lot of the time is what is the 语法解析

01:25:39

super secret squirrel technique or what was the unique combination cocktail of upbringing and genetics and whatever it was that this person had in order to be able to get them to this place. And the more boring… 语法解析

01:25:53

the answer, the less satisfactory it is. And I think part of the reason that it's not very satisfactory is that it actually, it doesn't take it further away from you. It brings it closer to you. Because if you say, well, what's the reason that Usain Bolt's the fastest man on the planet? And someone explains about how his fast twitch type A muscle fibers have a particular like ATP output and his lactate threshold and his limb length and the way that his body biomechanics and spinal flexion and all of this stuff. And you go, well, 语法解析

01:26:20

That's beautiful. Like what a romantic, what a gorgeous distillation of the fastest man on the planet ever. How the fuck am I supposed to replicate that? You said, well, I just sort of, I just trained for a decade and a half and I didn't stop. You go, yeah, that's fucking lame. Like that's, but it's also enlivening because you say it's at your feet too. Yeah. It's a, yeah. Cause when I think about, you know, if I think, I don't know if you think true it, 语法解析

01:26:49

You're like, I hear people say all the time, well, if I was in this situation or if, or they've even said like, if, if I, you know, if they were raised, like true, it was raised type thing or, or, 语法解析

01:27:04

You know, people are privileged of being made to suffer as a seven year old. Yeah. Yeah. Well, oh, that's another thing that I get worried about is some of the dads watching what he's doing and then thinking like, I'm going to have a child that does a 10,001. Yeah. And I feel bad for those kids because it was like the perfect storm for my boys. 语法解析

01:27:24

And they were built for it. So, you know, people say I'm built for this, whatever, I don't, whatever the case, but they did eventually flourish, uh, 语法解析

01:27:35

a lot of kids aren't going to it's going to be a disaster it's going to be a disaster and the dad is probably not going to be like living that example every day like i was so it's like then it's just like what you don't do this why am i doing it's going to be tough it comes back to authenticity yeah for sure it was a natural outgrowth and i think this is where you can hopefully give yourself a break even though i know you're terrible at doing that as um 语法解析

01:28:03

you did probably what comes most naturally to you, which was your way of showing love, which is world's tough. You need to be tougher than it is at least. And ideally about between five and 10 times tougher than it is. Yeah. And this is the way that I'm going to show you that I love you because I'm going to prepare you for the world and I'm going to make sure that nothing can hurt you and that you're going to be resilient and that you're going to have, you know, this is my, this is my, my showing of love. And, uh, 语法解析

01:28:31

If that is not how you actually want to show up, sooner or later there's going to be cracks in things. You can't force stuff long enough. It's the trite old thing about the man who loves to walk will walk further than the man who has to. Because eventually, over a long enough time horizon, people end up just 语法解析

01:28:55

regressing to the mean. They just go back to what their patterns are. And now maybe you can change your patterns over a very, very, very long time. But how many people do you know that have really made changes in their life? It's so few. People lose five pounds. You know, they'll go from one company to another. They'll, you know, read a book about arguments and change their communication style. But how many people do you know that have lost a hundred pounds or moved 语法解析

01:29:18

changed their career at 40 or gone to a new country, right? Or got out of that abusive relationship and entered a new one that was flourishing and taken all of the things that they learned. Like that's alchemy. It's like taking something that was awful and useless and pointless in your life and turning it into something that's beautiful and valuable. And it's so fucking rare. Yeah. Just doesn't happen all that much. And again, to kind of bring this back down, one of my favorite realizations and one I think that you share as well is, well, 语法解析

01:29:47

In some ways, that's kind of terrifying because, oh my God, look at how many people don't end up actualizing everything that they could. And it's not that the only thing to do in life that's great is to actualize your potential. A lot of it can just be flourishing and living it fully and maximizing your time on this planet in experience and presence and all that sort of stuff. 语法解析

01:30:09

But most people don't get that. Fuck, that's terrifying. Or most people don't get that. Holy shit, how low is the bar? Yeah. Like the average American is obese, divorced, and with less than 1K in the bank. That's the average American. That's nuts. How low is the bar? And with more opportunity than anywhere else in the world. And that's average American. That's what's crazy. I was curious about what you think about this because I've heard people say that 语法解析

01:30:40

you know, I couldn't have done it without whatever their wife or their, their, whatever. It's like, um, and as you know, my wife has been supportive. Truett's wife is very supportive, but to me, it's just like, I, so I don't know. I'm curious. That's why I want to hear what you think, because yes, I think so. If, if say true is saying, Oh, I'm going to go, I need to go train. And his wife was saying again, uh, 语法解析

01:31:11

But so I could see where that would be an issue. But to me, it's just like, maybe it goes back to the point you started to make this whole time about like parenting or whatever. It's like, I don't know. I don't want to say if it's fate, but to me, it's like, yeah, support is nice. I fucking don't need anything. I do the same shit. Whether you love me, hate me, support me or don't, nothing's going to stop me. I wonder if so. Can people understand? 语法解析

01:31:41

say, well, I didn't have that environment or the support you had. That's why I didn't achieve this. Or are there people who are like, and I think of Goggins, I think he 语法解析

01:31:53

I don't care who the fuck was in his life. He was going to be who he is no matter what. There's a difference between doing something because and doing something in spite. Right. I achieved this in spite of the way that my wife hates that I go out for a run at 530. Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I did this because my wife encourages me to go and do it. Right. Okay. And I think this is, it's a good point to talk about that. I do worry about the romanticization of suffering too much on men, especially that. 语法解析

01:32:22

There is a certain type of personality. I certainly have this. Maybe you do too. I definitely get the sense that Goggins has this. That is someone who, like the priest's hoeing, seeks out suffering beyond its utility. Right? It's like, I've taken everything that I can from this. Mm-hmm. 语法解析

01:32:51

And I'm making it harder than it needs to be. So a great cue that one of my friends gives in the gym is what would this be like if it was easier? So you're carrying the rock, right? There's a perfect example. You've got to carry a 72 pound pole as a rock up a hill. There are a variety of different ways. I learned all of them with you. You can have it in bear hugging, on the shoulders, you can have it in the center of the back, you can have it there. 语法解析

01:33:12

Why not carry it on the top of your head? Genuine question. Why not carry it on the top of your head? Because that would be harder. Yeah. That would make the 72 pound rock harder. Well, you know, I'm calcifying the top of my skull. Yeah. Like this is real suffering. You go, well, you don't do that. So we're always making a kind of value judgment around how hard should the hard thing be. Right. Yeah. And I just get the sense that a supportive wife is, 语法解析

01:33:40

Or, you know, if you really want your kids to know what suffering is, break up with your wife when they're one year old. You know what I mean? Leave them. Don't pay the alimony. Leave them in a broken home. See if you can leave some needles around. This is for you. Yeah, exactly. A nice systemic infection will really toughen them up. So we understand, but we just make value judgments. Like all of this is like, I feel like this is about the right amount. Right. You didn't make the kids do the mountain three times. Mm-hmm. 语法解析

01:34:07

Right. OK, so why one? Why not one in a bit? Why not three? Why not five? So with that, I just get the sense that if you have the choice of flying with the wind behind you, giving you a little bit of a push, being like, huh, the thing that I want to do that's really fucking hard is made easier by my partner. So I can run. Let's say you can run 100 miles on a day. 语法解析

01:34:31

if i have part of that's total i can get to like 95. if i've partnered that's a total hero i can get to 105. i want the partner that gets me to 105 that doesn't mean that the thing is less virtuous or or any easier but that my capacity gets unlocked because i'm not wasting it carrying a rock on my head right i'm carrying a rock on my shoulder right that makes sense yeah i i knew that's why i knew i there's a reason i brought it up because you could distill it down perfectly but yeah i 语法解析

01:34:59

I was just curious about, I've never really thought about it past, like just the basics like that. So thank you for that. I mean, if Drew was in a relationship and his wife was permanently saying, fuck, I wish that you could do any exercise, but polyps, like I just hate them. Like I'm mortally offended by polyps. You'd be like, hey, darling, come here. Let me have a, let's… 语法解析

01:35:19

Let's have a little chat about this. Like, can we just fucking ikne with the pull-up talk? With the pull-up hate? Yeah, exactly. He's trying to break a world record here. So I do think that's important. And as well, the learning when to actually just go, I'm going to enjoy this. I'm going to fucking enjoy the end of the race. Right? Like you've run the marathon. You've run the ultra. You've run the 250. And it's like, well, if you went… 语法解析

01:35:46

3% faster at the very, very end than you'd shave four seconds off your time. It's like, okay, but why did you do this? Did you do this to get the fastest time possible? You didn't win. Someone else fucking won, right? You didn't win. Or did you do it so that you can take a tiny little bit off the top 语法解析

01:36:02

and be like, yes, I crossed the finish line. I fucking felt that. That's positive reinforcement. That's why I'm here. I'm here to experience it. And maybe this is why I'll never be a turbo billionaire or, you know, like the absolute world champion at some super difficult pursuit. Because I just sort of value other things. And this is not natural. So it's very much me like 语法解析

01:36:25

dictating it to me not expressing it out of me if that makes sense yeah i'm like uh saying what i want to be true and how i want to show up not how i show up it's still very much just like a fucking japanese torture chamber inside of my head me telling me that yeah i'm not good enough and that could have been better and i shouldn't have done that thing and so on and so forth is that like is that mostly a man thing like uh being being judged on performance and worth and 语法解析

01:36:54

Do you think it's like more certainly contributes? I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's like, I heard somebody say the other day, cause I, and now I'm thinking, thinking about like what it means to be a man and a provider type thing. Yeah. I think that, I don't know. It's hard. It's hard. I just know the pressure I felt as being a dad and a husband and like making sure everybody was taking care of the bills were paid and all this. I just know. Yeah. I don't know. 语法解析

01:37:26

I think men get roped into this trap of worth sometimes. And it's just, that's fine because that's how it works. You know, not many women are out there saying, 语法解析

01:37:41

I need to work harder because I need to get my husband a bigger house and a nicer car. I mean… Yeah, that's funny. I don't… Yeah. Did you ever hear that? No, I don't know that much. The biggest house in Austin that was ever sold, actually, is owned by a friend, and that was built by the founder of Bumble, who was a woman. And I do… I don't know what her partner… 语法解析

01:38:04

does or whatever but like you didn't build a fucking 40 million dollar house i know that unless you were also like a total freak yeah business person but there is a little bit of me that goes like i wonder what it's like to be with someone who outwardly is that high achieving yeah you know and that's not to say that's the only way to achieve yeah there's many many other things that are 语法解析

01:38:30

more valuable than how much money you bring. But the dynamic typically is, you know, protect a provider and then help me. And even if that's not the way that the dynamic needs to be, or even like structurally quite is, even if you've got two breadwinners in the household, there's still this sort of expectation that the guy's going to show up in that way. But one of the saddest things to me 语法解析

01:38:57

is to see somebody who's won the game and is still playing it. Like what's an example? A 70s year old businessman who is now a grandfather hired 语法解析

01:39:08

High powered, you know, CEO of a company founded a bunch built and sold and still going to the expos and still walking around hustling and grinding and giving out their card and, you know, staying up late and scrutinizing all this stuff. It's like, dude, you've got a legacy that is so fucking far beyond this business thing that you did. Now, maybe in a minority of cases, it's your passion. It's just a door open. 语法解析

01:39:31

printer ink or whatever turnip farming whatever the fuck it is that you're great at yeah for the most part what i see is people that just want to be validated by the world around them and they just need that that and i would say i've got a lot more grace for the people who haven't yet achieved it and are still chasing it you know if it's i want to become but this is the problem with not having milestones and with the game being infinite that you can 语法解析

01:40:00

get to a situation where you never feel like you've arrived. And I think this is exactly what these people are struggling with. They're like, no, no, no, no. It's when I get to 10 million subscribers on YouTube, but no, no, no, no. It's when the business hits, I sell it for 3 billion because the first one that was at 1 billion, that just wasn't quite enough. I need to repeat it twice. It's not just doing it once because that could have been a fluke. I need to do it twice. Well, no, three times because I timed the market because of COVID. Like, you know, there's always a excuse, excuse, excuse. And after a while you need to kind of 语法解析

01:40:25

admit to yourself that this is just an addiction to wanting to be validated by the world and it's never going to be enough and you're trying to fill a hole internally with accolades and love externally and that's for the most part not the way that it works but in slight part is if you never run a fucking hundred mile race you'd be like come on i've got to do it i've got to do this thing yeah you look you did 240 what's the next one yeah it'd be 250 i know it has to where is that arizona 语法解析

01:40:55

Okay. What's the, we're in, it's going to be the 1st of May soon. So it's what, like the 5th of May or something you're running? Yeah. Yeah. It's from Jackson or is it, is it Jackson City? Or no, no. What? Shit. Now I can't remember. Oh no. Black Canyon. Fuck. Now I can't remember. Black Canyon City. I don't know. To Flagstaff. What's the temperature like in Arizona at this time of the year? 语法解析

01:41:21

I mean, it'll be hot during the day, of course, but it's kind of high desert, so it could be cold at night. Brilliant. Yeah, like when I did Moab, for example, it was maybe 90 during the day, and then one night it got down to nine in the mountains. Quite a swing. Holy fuck. Yeah, so it's a tough one. But yeah, it'll be good. But yeah, it's always like finding that limit, essentially, because… 语法解析

01:41:51

You know, when you're saying that, I was thinking back to like, I mean, when I grew up, I didn't even know people actually paid off cars. I thought you just had a car payment. Like, you know, it's like, I didn't know. Or, 语法解析

01:42:05

I thought like that little mobile home I showed you, I thought I'd lived there and I didn't actually know people paid off their houses. I thought you just paid rent or your house payment forever. And I was just like, so now, now it's just like, I have to readjust, you know, my house has paid off my, and I'm just like, okay. 语法解析

01:42:25

Now I don't really know what to do. I don't really know what the goal is supposed to be. Yeah. I mean, that's gold medalist syndrome. Yeah. Right. In a small regard. I know my mom and dad felt the same. One of my dad's proudest things is, you know, I was mortgage free. Yeah. I didn't know that happened. Yeah. Well, I remember you showing me when we were driving around Eugene. It wasn't like a trailer park. It was like a barn. 语法解析

01:42:48

like a mobile, like a single small thing. And you were saying, you know, when I grew up, I thought, wow, that would, you know, one of those in a truck, like, holy shit. Yeah. That was, that was awesome. That was the dream. Yeah. Those are called manufactured homes. Do they not have those here? 语法解析

01:43:02

Yeah, they will do. I just don't know what the name would have been. It's like an old trailer. They used to have a trailer park where it was like they're made out of metal. And now they look more like houses, but they're still sort of, they still come in on wheels. Internally, it's still the same. It gets set down. Still the same. Yeah. But for, you know, for out there, like where I showed you where we drove, it was just like, shit, that's awesome. You remember we went over that bridge that your sons used to jump off and there was a logger. Yeah. 语法解析

01:43:25

Yeah. It was pulled up by the side of the road. Yeah. We had a little chat with him. Yeah. Yeah. So cool. I know. Um, I'm interested in, Oh, you've navigated success or your relationship with success, warping sort of the original mission and not getting a, a set of velvet handcuffs or, uh, you know, sort of champagne problem prison or whatever, where, uh, 语法解析

01:43:53

you want to keep your foot on the gas. You want to keep pushing hard. You also, you know, materially have a very different life to the one that you were used to and that you expected and that you grew up with and that even your kids grew up with, you know, you've sort of arced this across time. Yeah. Um, how does success warp your relationship with the original mission in that way? How have you found navigating that? Yeah. I mean, I, I just, well, I lean into the hate. So I'm, I'm always, um, 语法解析

01:44:24

any negative about me is being reinforced. So I never feel like a success, so to speak, because I'm reading these hateful things people say about me. It's hard to feel successful when you're reading what a piece of shit you are, right? So I get reminded of that daily, but also it's like, 语法解析

01:44:44

You know, even when I had my regular job, I was a superintendent at the water and power company. I felt like I never deserved that job. I'm like, no, they're going to figure out. I'm not, even though I was good at it, I was good, but I always felt like I'm supposed to just be a worker. I'm, I'm a worker. That's, that's my talent level. That's my ability. That's my intelligence is we need workers. That's me. And so I've never, that's always, 语法解析

01:45:14

even though I, I retired from that job and now I'm doing the other thing. It's just like, I, I'm a worker. That's, that's what I do. So whether it's running miles, lifting waste, doing the podcast, 160 episodes or whatever it is, it's just like, yeah, it's just a different form of being in the ditch. I thought that I was just going to be in a ditch, you know, putting water line in the ground when I work for the utility till I retired. So it's just, it's the same. It's just work. It's just in a different form. Yeah. 语法解析

01:45:44

I got a question and I don't quite know how to phrase it, but I want you to try and think about it quite deeply if you can. What do you think, how do you think you would feel if you believed that you were worthy of the things that you've achieved or if you believed that you were good enough? If I felt like I deserved this, because this is part of it. Man, I don't even, I've never felt that way. I've never, how would I feel? 语法解析

01:46:31

Seems like it'd feel good. Would it feel if wouldn't it? I'm guessing. I mean, wouldn't it feel good to feel like your success? I think that'd feel good. I've never felt that. So I don't, um, cause even, even if somebody told me that, or if you, if you, if somebody says that right now, like I would just be like, I would just discount it and be like, no, no, they're fucking full of shit. They're just saying, that's what you're supposed to say to people. I mean, I wouldn't believe it. 语法解析

01:47:04

So I don't know. I'm not, I don't know. What if, let me give you another one. What if the next mountain that you need to climb is to be able to feel resonance and connection with the things that you've achieved in life? Yeah, I don't, um, like take a step back and say, wow, I made it. Look at what I did. Yeah. I am good enough. I raised some fucking kids. I raised kids that are world record breakers and protect our country. Mm hmm. 语法解析

01:47:41

I felt like that's, I did what I was supposed to do. So if I didn't raise the kids to be that way, I failed because they had it. Obviously they have it. So you have made it. So you were a success. No. You're like a fuck. You're like the Gordon Ryan of taking compliments. I just, I just, I'm not a, I just did what I was supposed to do. I understand. So you can only fail. 语法解析

01:48:06

Right. Oh, okay. So it was an obligation. Yes. Right. In some ways it was a minimum, minimum accepted level of. To them, because what if I, what if I, what if they weren't achieving these things that I failed because they had it in them. So as a parent, aren't you supposed to get the most, have your kids believe that they can achieve incredible things and, and get them to do it? Yeah. 语法解析

01:48:31

But I mean, you know, you could argue, well, why is it not two world records? Why wasn't he a seal and a ranger? Because you're not carrying it on your head. Yeah, you've got to carry it on your head. It's very important. No, look, I really, I'm very, very impressed with everything that the fucking Haynes household does. And I just wonder what, I wonder what, I wonder whether you could fly with a little bit more breeze behind you. 语法解析

01:49:00

like internally with this stuff. Go fuck. Yeah. Like, you know, just little glimmers, not all the time. Right. I don't think it's going to kill your edge, but, uh, I'd love. And this is again, me very much speaking to me, which is why, again, I am, I'm saying it how I want it to be, not how it is for me. Uh, yeah, I just love for you and for Goggins as well. You know, these, these guys that are really, really driven, you know, hatred and, and, and chip on your shoulder and this bitterness and the resentment and stuff like that. 语法解析

01:49:30

Great fuel, but I just wonder if there's, you know, can this be a hybrid car as opposed to just a diesel one? And maybe that's an interesting mountain for you to, or an interesting race for you to assess the difficulty of, because in the same way that 语法解析

01:49:51

spending a day on the couch would be incredibly uncomfortable in a manner that running 250 miles isn't for you. I wonder, okay, well, let's look inward. What is there that I can do here with regards to this? Like, how can I… Oh, fuck. Why? 语法解析

01:50:10

congratulating myself no dude i give me 200 kilos to deadlift a few hundred times you know like that's that that's what i want to do i i i understand that it's uh that's that is really hard um because i when i think about even this race coming up you know i broke my foot i've had all these injuries and it's like of course my wife people that care about me is like we can't do the race 语法解析

01:50:34

I'm like, I have to do the race. Well, what, what did, well, cause Speedland has his shoes coming out. It's a big promotion about me doing this race with the Cocodona 250 shoes, got a road shoe and a, what, and like this, what I have expectations, the race let me in, um, you know, to drive awareness and to drive interest. It's like, I got people relying on me, relying on me. I not doing it is not an option, but, 语法解析

01:51:04

Well, you're hurt. Doesn't matter. So it's like, yeah, I'm not quite there. I'm not quite there yet to where I can be like, because normally it'd be like most people would probably be like, I'm injured. I was going to do it, but I broke my foot. And anybody would say, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Good reason. That's a good reason. But I can't do it. So I can't. I wonder, have you got grandkids yet? I'm going to have one here on the 12th, Tanner. Okay. 语法解析

01:51:37

Congratulations, Tanner. I wonder what granddad life is going to be like for you. I mean, if kids don't change you, do you grant? Run it back. We'll do it again. Fucking one generation down. Look, dude, that's one of the things that you would typically hear about the maniacal 语法解析

01:52:00

solo ranger guy that you know keeps working ah but he's softened by kids like no no no his kids were a vehicle for it like you know it went even harder um but i don't know you you it'll be fascinating like you're a fascinating guy and i i'm going to be really really interested to watch what happens over the next few years is presumably more the haynes household grows more and more and and and the grandkids thing and you go fuck like i'm revisiting this 语法解析

01:52:29

babying childhood thing and running this back. Hmm. Where was I at the last time this was the case? And how do I want to show up this time for grandkid Haynes? Yeah. You know, I think it would be different because as you said, like, even if I had kids now with where I am socially, economically, you know, when they were born, we didn't have anything, you know? So it was just like, it was a grind different now. So yeah, I don't know. Maybe, maybe we'll be different. 语法解析

01:52:59

Cam Haynes, ladies and gentlemen. Cam, you're awesome, man. I'm so glad that you got to come on. Thank you. And your drink is amazing. Well, fantastic. Tell people about your book, most importantly. Get me dialed in. Good, good, good, good. That's what we need. Undeniable. Chris Williamson is featured. Modern Wisdom. First chapter and on the back. Outlier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Undeniable. It's available everywhere. It ships on May 6th. The goal is… 语法解析

01:53:23

Last time. So you're in the middle of this fucking run when your book releases. I know that's why your publisher wants to, it will be chasing you down. That's why I'm doing this now to run away from the book. Yeah. Well, I just said that the book, you know, a book release is usually pretty predictable. You go and you do these appearances and that I said, mine's going to be a little different. I'm going to be doing a 250 mile race and the book comes out and I'm 语法解析

01:53:48

To me, that means you are undeniable. You're living the philosophy. Yeah. So it's like last time they had Endure, they got it up to number seven on New York Times. So I got screwed. I was the best seller of those, but it's an editorial. So just give me what I deserve. I just want number one this time. All right. Okay. Well, I love it, dude. Not just because I'm plastered throughout it. It's fucking awesome. And I appreciate the fuck out of you. Oh, thank you, Chris. I mean, it's been… 语法解析

01:54:16

Getting to know you has been amazing. Getting to watch your growth and success is incredible. You put the pressure on me to thank and to be smart. You made me run 11 miles. Go fuck yourself. So yeah, I guess it's reciprocal. But thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Big fan of you and modern wisdom. So thank you. Appreciate you too, dude. All right. 语法解析

01:54:38

I get asked all the time for book suggestions. People want to get into reading fiction or nonfiction or real life stories. And that's why I made a list of 100 of the most interesting and impactful books that I've ever read. These are the most life-changing reads that I've ever found. And there's descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And it's completely free. And you can get it right now by going to chriswillx.com slash books. That's chriswillx.com slash books. 语法解析

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克里斯·威廉姆森和卡姆·汉尼斯甫一开始便回顾了他们两年前的相聚时光。克里斯提到，那次讨论中产生的许多精彩片段至今仍在流传。卡姆回应说，特别是关于“选择和未选择的苦难”的讨论，对他而言意义非凡，将会一直萦绕在他心头。卡姆也对克里斯在他的书中对自己的赞美表示感谢。克里斯则开玩笑地说，如果需要扛一块72磅的石头上山，那么卡姆负责扛石头，他则负责在一旁“说些废话”，这正是各自发挥专长的体现。

他们回忆起一次共同的跑步经历，大约跑了11英里。卡姆说，那可能是他跑过的最长距离，是一次越野跑，而且第二天感觉出奇地好。通常非跑步者在中断跑步后再次运动，身体总会有某个部位疼痛不堪，比如他的脚踝和小腿，但那次却是个例外。他当时还担心第一天的体力消耗会影响后续与克里斯的访谈表现。卡姆非常感谢克里斯能前往他长大的地方——俄勒冈州的尤金市，并与他分享那段生活。克里斯也表示非常喜欢尤金。卡姆解释说，他之所以想分享那些，是因为他的成长经历与众不同，他认为人们总是能从别人的经历中找到与自己产生共鸣的片段。

克里斯提到，尽管他成长于英国东北部，卡姆成长于俄勒冈州，两地环境迥异，但生活的某些基本原则是相通的。他特别赞赏卡姆提出的关于“我从生活中应得什么？”这个问题的类比，并联想到清教徒的工作伦理。卡姆进一步阐述，这种伦理源于一种信念，即受苦——比如牧师在烈日下田间劳作——本身就是对上帝的一种奉献。这种实际的痛苦在某种程度上是高尚的，因为它能锤炼人对困境的承受能力；但从另一方面看，如果这种痛苦并非为了某个明确的目标（除非从神学角度解读），那么它就可能变得毫无意义。卡姆还称赞克里斯非常擅长清晰地表达思想、分享阅读所得，并能提供恰当的背景信息，让听众真正理解并带走一些有价值的东西，形成有力的“金句”。克里斯则谦虚地表示，自己只是收集和再利用了他人早已总结出的智慧，并提到今天是“反客为主”来采访卡姆，也提及了卡姆的新书《Undeniable》。

克里斯直言，他对驱动卡姆进行那些常人看来既愚蠢又极端的挑战的内在动力非常感兴趣。卡姆回应说，现在这些挑战，比如每天跑20英里，对他而言已经内化为生活的一部分，一种习惯，而非经过深思熟虑的决策。他说，他只是起床，完成他必须做的工作，无论是跑步还是其他。这些具有挑战性和艰苦的事情，就是他现在的生活方式。在过去，这种驱动力源于一种不确定感，一种想要在这个世界上找到自己位置的渴望。他回忆起过去，从未想过自己能为世界提供什么价值，只是觉得生活不应仅仅是工作和支付账单。他甚至不认为自己做的任何事情能够长久。他举例说，过去在开支票时，如果金额是17美元，他会写成20美元，只是为了在月底能有一个小小的缓冲，感觉账户里的钱比预期的多一点点。这种“凑整”的做法，是他当时对未来唯一的规划，只是为了有个缓冲，并无更长远的打算。

克里斯分析道，大多数人遇到的困难在于从“零到一”的起步阶段。解释如何有效地跑一次5公里是相对容易的，但要解释如何能够坚持每周跑三次5公里并持续五年，则非常困难。他以健身为例，专家可以教会完美的动作，但无法解释如何将一个动作（如三头肌下压）通过渐进超负荷的方式，结合其他肌群的训练，并坚持十年以达到理想的体型。他认为，对于像卡姆这样高度自律和持之以恒的人来说，习惯是让他坚持下去的关键。而最初的驱动力可能五花八门，包括对自身不足的恐惧、不想碌碌无为的渴望、寻求他人认可的需要，或是对周遭环境的掌控欲。

克里斯分享了自己早年健身的经历：即便一天中所有事情都一败涂地，健身房也是他唯一能完全掌控的领域。最初，他去健身房的动机是渴望变得更强壮，减少脆弱感，变得更有吸引力，并增强自信。而现在，去健身房已经成为一种雷打不动的习惯，就像每天早上7点40分，他自然而然就会出现在那里一样。卡姆对此深表赞同，他指出，真正的关键在于数十年如一日的坚持。他以自己为例，虽然高中时有比他更优秀的运动员，但四十年后，那些人早已无法与他匹敌。他认为没有人能提前四十年进行规划，关键在于持续地做。克里斯则敏锐地观察到，市面上关于纪律、动机的书籍汗牛充栋，但专门论述“坚持”本身的书却寥寥无几，或许是因为“坚持做，别停下”这样的内容过于简单直白，难以成书。

卡姆回顾自己的童年，那是一段充满动荡和起伏的岁月。他认为，在那样不确定的环境中，他唯一能控制的就是自己正在做的事情。比如，他五岁时，每天上学前都会独自一人在两道栅栏之间来回跑31趟，凑足一英里。他觉得，即使无法掌控生活中的其他任何事，他至少可以掌控跑步这件事。这种通过跑步获得掌控感的模式，或许一直延续至今，从未改变。克里斯补充说，即使一天过得再糟糕，只要完成了一件事，比如跑步，就能从中获得一次“胜利感”。

克里斯接着谈到了伤病带来的讽刺现象：那些久坐不动的人身体往往没什么大碍，反倒是那些积极健身的人常常受伤病困扰。他分享了自己二十多岁时一段长达五年的伤病经历，包括椎间盘突出、跟腱断裂等，这严重影响了他以强壮体格为核心的身份认同。他提出了一个深刻的问题：当你的主要应对机制（比如训练）被剥夺时，你如何维持自尊和幸福感？他认为，真正的考验在于，当不能训练时，你的心态能有多好。他对卡姆说，对卡姆而言，最容易的事情或许是出去跑步，而最难的事情可能是被要求在沙发上静坐。

卡姆透露，他目前正受到伤病（从脚部延伸到腿筋）的困扰，因此错过了波士顿和尤金的比赛。但他有一场重要的250英里比赛即将来临，所以他不能停止训练。由于无法跑步，他开始大量步行，比如一天走27英里，上周甚至步行了150英里。他认为在长距离比赛中，策略性的步行非常重要，所以他决定“磨练我的步行技巧”，目标是每英里走15分钟。他没有选择静坐康复，而是“整天他妈的走路”。克里斯开玩笑说，卡姆这是在“钻空子”：医生说不能跑，但没说不能走。

随后，克里斯将话题转向卡姆的儿子特鲁特（Truett），称他简直是个“机器”。卡姆坦承，自己当年对孩子们逼得太紧了。他当时年轻，不知道如何做父亲——自己的父亲缺席，而他又极其讨厌继父。他的育儿理念是：生活充满挑战和竞争，所以他必须让孩子们做好万全的准备。他回忆自己糟糕的童年如何使他变得坚强，因此他用类似的方式对待孩子，让他们每天跑步登山。他对孩子们说，他们拥有一切他曾经渴望的东西，如果不对他们加以磨砺，他们就会变得软弱，所以他要让他们变得坚强。他甚至让孩子们在七八岁时就跑半程马拉松，比如特鲁特八岁时就以1小时54分的成绩完成了半马。他让孩子们多年来坚持做这些艰苦的事情，就是为了让他们能为未来生活的挑战做好准备。他用电影《生命之树》中布拉德·皮特扮演的严父角色来类比自己：他不在家时，孩子们就像解放了一样玩闹；他一回家，气氛就立刻紧张起来。他承认自己总是扮演“坏人”的角色，不仅是纪律的执行者，还强迫孩子们做那些极其困难的事情，以至于外界看来他把孩子们逼得太紧了。在孩子们的体育比赛中，他要求极高，比如要求他们的膝盖上必须有擦伤，必须比场上任何一个孩子都更努力。他强迫孩子们每天都要竞争，尽管他们可能只是想单纯地玩乐。

卡姆说，现在他看到了这种教育方式的成果——大儿子坦纳（Tanner）成为了一名游骑兵，特鲁特也在自己的领域取得了非凡的成就——但他承认自己并非完美的父亲，并对此有所后悔。当坦纳（当时是一名狱警）决定加入军队成为一名游骑兵时，卡姆内心充满了担忧，害怕儿子会因为参军而遭遇不测。他曾反复向孩子们灌输“平庸就是失败”的观念。坦纳想成为游骑兵，也是因为他觉得自己能为这个世界贡献更多。卡姆为此反思，自己是否因为过分强调“平庸即失败”，而让坦纳觉得从事普通工作是不够好的。他对此深感后悔，并在坦纳入伍前向他郑重道歉，说如果坦纳因为他过去的那些言论而遭遇不幸，他会非常自责。他绝对后悔曾经那样严厉地对待孩子们。

克里斯对此表示理解，他认为父母总是在给予孩子优渥生活（自己从未拥有过的）和让他们体验必要的困苦（这些困苦塑造了父母自身的品格）之间艰难地寻求平衡。他指出，所有从困境中奋斗出来的父母，都会有类似的担忧。他庆幸卡姆在二十多岁时就有了孩子，因为如果放到现在，他们之间的生活方式差异会更大，更难让孩子理解过去的艰辛。他以Gymshark的创始人本·弗朗西斯（Ben Francis）为例，这位出身贫寒的企业家如今也面临着如何教育自己孩子的难题。克里斯认为卡姆已经尽了最大的努力，应该给自己一些宽容，毕竟努力工作的目的之一就是为了给家人提供更好的生活。他观察到，在“严厉”与“宽松”的育儿光谱上，大多数父母和孩子都过于偏向“宽松”的一端，比如所谓的铲雪式育儿、直升机式育儿、温柔育儿等。他认为，尽管这些育儿方式初衷良好，但往往会导致孩子长大后变得软弱、自恋、权利感过剩。相比之下，适度地被推向“严厉”的一方，反而可能是一种奇特的礼物。

克里斯进一步提出，孩子的成就有多大程度上源于后天教育，又有多大程度上源于先天基因？他认为并不存在绝对正确的育儿方式，孩子们本身具有很强的适应能力。他猜测，如果卡姆的孩子们和他拥有相似的内在特质，那么无论卡姆是否强迫他们登山，他们可能最终都会走向类似的道路。他指出卡姆自身数十年如一日的跑步习惯和极高的工作效率（比如播客的更新频率），暗示了卡姆孩子们的驱动力可能也部分源于遗传。他推测，即使卡姆用不同的方式教育孩子，他们凭借内在特质可能也能达到现有成就的80%到90%，只是经验上会少一些。克里斯（作为一位非父亲）认为，父母能为孩子做的最好的事情就是树立一个好榜样。他强调，孩子们从父母在餐桌旁的日常互动中学到的东西，远比所有刻意灌输的课程都要多，言传不如身教。如果父母关系不睦或缺乏亲密互动，孩子们都会看在眼里，他们通过观察学习到的东西远多于通过被告知学习到的。他举例说，即使卡姆没有强迫孩子们登山，他自己坚持去登山的行为本身就是一种强有力的示范。

卡姆对此表示赞同，并补充说，父母关于“生活是竞争”、“努力工作是关键”的这种核心心态，会潜移默化地影响他们的言行举止。他强调，真正影响孩子的是父母在不经意间流露出的真实心态，而他的心态一直是“做得更多，表现更好，更努力”。他提到，即使他没有刻意强迫，孩子们也从他身上看到了这种心态。谈到儿子特鲁特，虽然他现在成就斐然，但也招致了一些非议和嫉妒。但卡姆指出，特鲁特也是经历了许多年的失败才成功的。他透露，特鲁特从14岁开始就坚持每天举重，从未间断，但多年来一直非常瘦小，进步缓慢，经历了很多挫折。特鲁特在一次视频中提到，他以前没有意识到自己的哥哥坦纳每天都在“碾压”他。卡姆回忆说，他从不让孩子们轻易赢，他们之间的竞争总是非常激烈，孩子们经常为此哭闹发脾气。例如，他会故意用力扔橄榄球让坦纳接，坦纳接不到时会气得猛捶地面，甚至导致手部骨折。卡姆转述特鲁特的话说：因为每天都被父亲和哥哥打败，他一度以为自己非常弱小，是个失败者，完全没有意识到他们是多么强大的人。卡姆强调，人们只看到特鲁特现在的成就，却不知道他14岁时是多么瘦小，甚至因为个子太矮而被篮球队裁掉的经历。对于那些质疑特鲁特使用类固醇的言论，卡姆回应说：这是他14年来每天在健身房苦练数小时，并且过着极度自律的生活才换来的结果，如此巨大的投入才能有如此的成就。

克里斯观察到，互联网上对某些类型的成功男性存在一种特殊的厌恶和嫉妒。他认为这有点像女性“美貌特权”的反面，并提到有魅力的女性在同性中也容易成为被攻击的目标。他指出，有能力、有男子气概的男性，尤其是年轻男性，也容易受到这种嫉妒；年长一些的男性，可能带来的威胁感会稍小。克里斯认为这种现象很多都与择偶竞争有关，并引用了一个观点：由肌肉量所衡量的男子气概是增强男性吸引力的一个重要预测因素。他详细介绍了一项由戴维·普茨（David Putz）进行的研究：研究者让女性评价一组男性照片的吸引力，同时让男性评价同一组照片中同性的强悍程度（即在打斗中获胜的可能性）。十二个月后，追踪研究结果显示，男性对同性强悍程度的评价几乎完美地预测了照片中男性的性伴侣数量，而女性对其吸引力的评价则几乎没有预测能力。这表明，强悍程度（力量）似乎是吸引力的一个关键因素，尽管这并非吸引异性的唯一途径（比如，充满文艺气息的吉他手也可能非常受欢迎）。

克里斯分析说，像特鲁特这样年轻、充满活力、似乎无所畏惧且不断进步的人，如果观察者与他的水平相近，会觉得非常励志；但如果两者水平相差悬殊，观察者则会感到巨大的压力。他认为，特鲁特不像尤塞恩·博尔特那样拥有神级的天赋和从事遥不可及的运动项目，他所做的引体向上是很多普通人也尝试过的，这种“表面上看起来没什么特别”反而更加凸显了对比，让人不禁发问：“为什么他能做到而我不能？”于是，人们很容易将特鲁特的成功归咎于优越的家庭背景、不公平的外部帮助、超常的基因或激素优势，甚至是作弊等。克里斯指出，这些归因方式有助于人们缩小自身与榜样之间的差距，以应对由此产生的心理落差。

卡姆认为这确实是一把双刃剑：人们无法与天赋异禀的博尔特产生共鸣，因为他太遥不可及了；但他自己（作为一个出身普通的人）所取得的成功，则让其他普通人失去了找借口的余地。他指出，特鲁特和他都因此而受益。特鲁特看起来就像一个普通的邻家男孩，却做着了不起的事情，这更能引起普通人的共鸣，给他们带来希望，“哦，也许我也能变得更好。”卡姆提到，顶尖奥运选手的粉丝数量远不如特鲁特这样的“跑步网红”（runfluencer）。尽管一些精英运动员可能认为他们不配拥有这样的影响力，但正是因为他们能与普通大众建立连接，他们的力量才由此而来。

克里斯赞同卡姆的观点，并提出了“细微差别的自恋”（narcissism of small differences）这一概念：卡姆和特鲁特并非出身于与众不同的阶层，他们所从事的运动也并非高不可攀、无法企及。面对一个普通人做出了非凡之事，克里斯认为通常有两种反应：第一种是，“天啊，这个普通人做到了，这意味着我也能做到！”第二种是，“天啊，这个普通人做到了，这意味着我也被期望能做到。”他解释说，“被期望做到”的这种想法会让你清楚地看到自己在哪些方面落后了，因为你会想：“如果我拥有和他一样的纪律和坚持，那么取得那些成就的人可能就是我了。”而当你追问“为什么不是我”时，往往会得到一个丑陋的答案：“因为我没有像他那样，在长达十四年的时间里，日复一日地坚持训练，从未间断。”这个现实之所以令人不快，正是因为它把矛头直指你自己。克里斯坦承，自己年轻时也会有这种苦涩的感觉，会觉得“那个家伙不公平”。他认为这只是自我在作祟，试图在无处不在的、奇怪的地位游戏中保护自己。他对比了过去的小部落时代和现在的信息化时代：在过去，人们的比较范围有限，很容易在小圈子内找到自己的价值；而现在，我们的地位比较范围扩展到了整个地球，尽管我们可能并不认识特鲁特·海恩斯，但潜意识里仍会与他进行比较，这就是为什么那么多人会感到自卑。你可以将这种比较视为激励，也可以视为威胁。

克里斯理解为什么人们会将其视为威胁，尤其是当成功者还带着一种“去你的”的能量时，更容易激起他人的反感。卡姆回应说，没有人能够对批评免疫。他鼓励人们多加思考。他回忆起自己早年弓猎成功并开始跑马拉松时，一些守旧派或所谓的“守门人”会说：“哦，所以现在想要猎杀一只麋鹿，就必须先跑个马拉松了？”卡姆当时的回答是：“从来没有人这么说过，我只是在向你们展示我所做的事情而已。”他提醒人们，特鲁特刚开始训练时，也曾连一个引体向上都做不起来，体型是典型的瘦胖型。他强调，他的孩子们最初也只是普通的瘦弱男孩，并没有什么特别之处，每个人都是从那样的起点开始的。

他们聊到了一些有趣的另类马拉松纪录。克里斯提到，就在本周末，有人穿着Crocs洞洞鞋打破了马拉松世界纪录，是英国的汤米·特里斯（Tommy Trees），他以2小时48分48秒的成绩完赛。克里斯还饶有兴致地补充说，在过去一年里，这项穿着Crocs跑马拉松的纪录竟然被四次打破，而且特里斯之前还曾三次尝试打破穿着圣诞老人服装跑马拉松的纪录，但均未成功。他开玩笑说，Crocs和牛仔裤的搭配简直是完美。卡姆透露，特鲁特接下来的比赛是在奥斯汀举行的一场“坚持到最后一人”（Last Man Standing）的比赛。这种比赛的规则是每小时跑一个4.2英里的环路，看谁能坚持到最后。但卡姆也提到，吉尼斯世界纪录似乎并不认可牛仔裤马拉松（特鲁特曾经尝试过），也不认可他自己曾经想尝试的带着弓跑马拉松。克里斯说，但吉尼斯却认可穿着圣诞老人服装或穿着Crocs跑马拉松的纪录。另一位名叫乔丹·马多克斯（Jordan Maddox）的选手，在波士顿马拉松比赛中穿着香蕉服装跑，也创造了世界纪录。两人于是开玩笑地讨论起香蕉服装是否比其他水果（比如梨或西瓜）的造型更具有空气动力学优势。克里斯表示，看着这一切（卡姆一家的发展和这些趣闻）都非常有趣。

克里斯说，在与卡姆一家相处并了解他们之后，看到他们现在所取得的成就，他一点也不感到意外。卡姆也提到，特鲁特目前在赞助和制作自己的视频系列方面都做得不错。克里斯问卡姆，观看特鲁特打破引体向上世界纪录时是什么感觉。卡姆回答说，那是一项极其艰巨的任务，要在24小时内完成10000个引体向上，对双手是巨大的考验，很多微小的细节都可能出错，导致韧带或肌腱受伤。他提到，大卫·戈金斯（David Goggins）也曾多次尝试这项纪录并因此受伤，所以挑战24小时引体向上并不能保证安然无恙地完成。但卡姆认为特鲁特非常专注和痴迷，训练也极其刻苦。当特鲁特成功时，卡姆只是对他说：“干得好，这不意外，这是你应该做到的。”如果特鲁特没有做到这样的事情，他反而会感到惊讶。他一直告诉孩子们：“你们不是普通人，普通是不行的，平庸也是不行的。”所以，在他看来，特鲁特只是做了他理应做到的事情。克里斯也表示，这确实是意料之中的结果。卡姆觉得，特鲁特在24小时内完成10000个引体向上，是人类历史上前所未有的壮举，非常了不起。克里斯也感叹，对于普通人来说，能做5个引体向上已经很困难了，更不用说10000个。

克里斯接着问卡姆，既然卡姆曾说过“爱是最强大的动力形式”，那么在他那充满攻击性和怨恨的动力系统中，爱和激情又扮演着什么样的角色呢？卡姆澄清说，他可能说的是激情，而非爱。他有一句名言：“爱让我强大，恨让我不可阻挡。”他承认，自己仍然更容易被恨意、别人说的废话以及别人对他的不信任所驱动。如果有人支持他，他当然心怀感激，但他觉得那并不重要；而恨意，以及别人对他所付出的努力或设定的目标的轻视，才是真正推动他前进的动力，虽然他自己也说不清为什么会这样。他认为，激情是使人与众不同，成为“异类”的关键因素，就像克里斯在播客领域所展现出的那样，对知识、人类行为、大脑、身体、性吸引力等各种事物抱有强烈的学习热情。他认为爱和恨则可能导向不同的结果。

克里斯敏锐地指出，如果恨意对卡姆是更大的激励，那么那些想打压他的人就必须称赞他才能让他慢下来，这真是个有趣的悖论。卡姆笑着说，当别人说“爱你”时，他会怀疑其真实性；但恨意通常是非常真实的，这种真实感更能触动他。克里斯由此恍然大悟，之前卡姆在他家那块著名的岩石上刻下“poser”（摆姿势）的字样，正是这种心理的体现。他当时并不理解，直到现在才明白，卡姆更容易被别人的反感而非支持所驱动。卡姆解释说，如果总有人告诉你你有多棒，你可能会开始相信，然后就可能失去锐气，这不是他想要的。他需要那种“为什么你觉得我不行”的刺激。

克里斯引用了维克多·弗兰克尔（Victor Frankl）的一句话：“当一个人找不到深刻的意义感时，他们会用快乐来分散自己的注意力。”并提出了一个反向的观点：当一个人找不到深刻的快乐感时，他们会用意义来分散自己的注意力。他认为卡姆，或许包括他自己，都是这种反向观点的例证。如果一个人日常生活中缺乏轻松、玩乐、愉悦和轻盈感，或者这些感觉对他来说不像对别人那么容易获得，那么他可能会转向追求意义，通过不断设定目标、迎接挑战来获得满足感。卡姆那句“我在受苦的时候最快乐”似乎也印证了这一点。对于那些问他“你快乐吗？”“你享受生活吗？”的人，卡姆的回应是，对他而言，跑上那座山就是乐趣，就是他喜欢做的事情，这与别人通过吃甜甜圈、看电视获得的快乐是不同的。

卡姆反问克里斯，对于他的播客达到300万订阅者这样的里程碑，他有何感受，这是否会让他觉得“我已经成功了”。克里斯回答说，他现在的目标已经不再是追求具体的数字，比如金钱或粉丝数量。最初他或许有这样的想法，想要在某个领域做到非常精通，获得他所尊敬的人的认可。但现在，他更看重的是与嘉宾之间建立的深度连接，以及节目对听众产生的真实影响。他承认，有时播放量最高的节目未必是影响最深远的。他现在努力的方向是真正理解对面坐着的人，以及听众应该从他们身上学到什么，而这些都无法从YouTube的分析数据中体现出来。他意识到自己很容易沉迷于可衡量的指标，因此需要有意识地加以控制，因为那并非最重要的。他认为，很多人一开始会追求强度，但真正能让你坚持下去的是长久性。如果一味追逐数字，可能会为了短期的强度而牺牲长期的发展，就像有些举重运动员不顾周期性训练和休息，一味追求成绩提升，最终导致受伤。

克里斯认为，判断生活状态的一个好标准是：当你早上闹钟响起时，你有多兴奋地想起床？如果每天醒来都对当天的工作充满期待（比如采访卡姆，或者第二天采访《地位的游戏》的作者威尔·斯托尔），那就说明状态很好。他坦言，也曾有过对节目内容不那么兴奋的时期。他觉得自己已经通过播客取得了远超预期的成就，比如移居到新的国家，结识了许多朋友，摆脱了过去成长环境中（英国青少年怀孕率最高地区）的局限。他觉得自己“已经赢了”。所以现在，他想尝试一种更轻松、更享受过程的方式，看看效果如何，但这并不排除未来某个时候他会重新“紧握杠铃”，再次全力以赴。

卡姆表示，之所以好奇克里斯的看法，是因为现在社会充斥着各种可衡量的指标，比如粉丝数、点赞数、播客下载量（这直接影响广告收入），人们很容易陷入这种“唯数据论”的陷阱，仿佛达不到某个标准就是不成功。他认为乔·罗根在这方面做得很好，不受外界干扰，只邀请自己感兴趣的人。克里斯补充说，他希望回顾自己的作品时，能真实地感觉到“那就是我”，而不是为了迎合什么而做。他认为，有些领域，比如竞技体育，目标就是赢，就是举起那个重量；但在创作领域，比如写书，你可以写一本畅销但自己并不认同的书，也可以写一本真正表达自我的书。他觉得，在事业初期，人们可能会更看重世俗的成功，但到了一定阶段，当对地位、金钱的渴望得到满足后，就会开始思考更深层次的东西。他开玩笑说自己集齐了播客界的“五颗无限宝石”（萨姆·哈里斯、乔丹·彼得森、阿兰·德波顿、纳瓦尔·拉维坎特，以及即将实现的乔·罗根），那么接下来呢？他引用詹姆斯·克利尔在《原子习惯》中的观点：“你不会提升到你的目标水平，你会下降到你的系统水平。” 因此，需要不断迭代和坚持。但他同时也强调，没有目标就没有成长，因为目标指明了方向。这又回到了张力与平衡的问题。他猜测，几年后当卡姆的播客做到300集时，卡姆可能也会更关注内容的深度和发掘不为人知的人物，而非单纯的指标。

卡姆坦言，对他来说，坐下来与人进行深度交谈的播客，其难度甚至超过了他所进行的那些艰苦的体能挑战。他列举了自己经历过的最艰难的几次体能考验：比如240英里或250英里的超长距离比赛，几天几夜几乎不睡觉，每一步都是煎熬（一场200英里的比赛大约需要迈出50万步）；还有在极端恶劣天气条件下的狩猎，比如一次与朋友罗伊（Roy）进行的猎羊，天气恶劣，地形陡峭，他们追踪受伤的公羊直到天黑，夜里还有灰熊在帐篷外徘徊，他当时累得顾不上熊，倒头就睡；以及在科迪亚克岛（Kodiak Island）进行的为期12天的狩猎，每天都在阴雨和湿冷中度过，飞行员甚至把返程日期随手写在了自己的牛仔裤上，让他们担心是否会被遗忘。

克里斯提到了他播客第一期的嘉宾斯图·莫顿（Stu Morton），他曾计划独自划船横渡大西洋，大约需要划桨1400万次。他们都对这种将宏大挑战分解为具体数字的方式印象深刻。他们还讨论了“后院超马”（Backyard Ultra）这种由巴克利马拉松创始人拉兹（Laz）发明的比赛形式。拉兹的理念是，他讨厌有些比赛有人会赢，他想创造一种“每个人都会输”的比赛，只是有些人比另一些人输得晚一些。在这种比赛中，参赛者每小时完成一个固定的环路，直到只剩下最后一个人。卡姆提到，目前这项比赛的纪录已经达到了惊人的450英里，这意味着选手要连续跑超过4天，期间每次休息时间都极短（如果50分钟跑完一圈，就只有10分钟休息）。他透露特鲁特也计划参加这类比赛，但卡姆希望特鲁特能真正赢得一场比赛的冠军，而不只是在某些赛事中因特殊装扮（如牛仔裤）而走红。

谈到基因、天赋与努力的关系，卡姆认为自己和儿子们并非拥有卓越的基因，他们的成就更多是源于痴迷和不懈的努力。他常说“要么平庸，要么痴迷”，为了不平庸，他必须痴迷。他承认儿子们确实有一些基因优势，但更重要的是他们抓住了这些优势并付诸了行动，尤其是特鲁特，更是将潜力发挥到了极致。克里斯则提到了柔术界的奇才克雷格·琼斯（Craig Jones），他天赋异禀，但训练并不系统，生活也相对随意，却依然是世界顶级的格斗选手。卡姆认为，如果琼斯能更投入，他的成就将不可限量。克里斯总结说，对大多数人而言，无论天赋如何，坚持和努力工作是通往成功的唯一途径。而当一个“并不特别有天赋”的人取得巨大成功时，往往会引发两种截然不同的反应：一种是质疑“他凭什么”，另一种则是受到鼓舞“既然他可以，我也能行”。人们总想知道成功的秘诀，但答案往往是“无聊的”坚持，这反而更具普适性，因为它意味着成功也掌握在自己手中。卡姆也表达了类似的担忧，他怕其他父亲会盲目模仿他对孩子的极端训练方式，而忽略了自身是否以身作则，言行一致。克里斯则认为，卡姆的育儿方式其实是他表达爱的独特方式——帮助孩子为这个艰难的世界做好充分的准备，让他们变得比世界更强大。

卡姆向克里斯请教关于伴侣支持的看法。克里斯认为，一个支持型的伴侣能够提升个人的潜能，让你走得更远，但这并不意味着事情本身变得更容易了，而是你的能力因为没有内耗而得到了更好的发挥。他再次用“把石头顶在头上”作为比喻，指出我们总是在对事情的难度做出某种价值判断，选择让事情变得多难。比如，卡姆没有让孩子们一天之内爬三次山，只爬了一次，这就是一种选择。如果有一个能让你如虎添翼的伴侣，为何不选择呢？这并不减损努力的价值。卡姆表示，克里斯的分析非常到位，他之前并未如此深入地思考过这个问题。

最后，克里斯将话题引向了卡姆的自我认知。他问卡姆，如果他打心底里相信自己配得上所取得的成就，或者觉得自己足够好，那会是什么感觉？卡姆坦言，他从未有过这种感觉，也难以想象会是什么样子。他认为自己所做的一切都只是“做了应该做的事”，这意味着如果没能做到，那就是失败，这是一种义务，是最低标准。比如抚养孩子，如果孩子们没有取得如今的成就，他会认为是自己的失败，因为他相信孩子们有那个潜力。克里斯敏锐地指出，卡姆就像柔术界的戈登·瑞安（Gordon Ryan）一样，不擅长接受赞美。克里斯温柔地挑战卡姆，他认为卡姆内心或许可以有更多的空间来容纳对自身成就的认可和共鸣，即使只是一点点，也不一定会磨灭他的锐气。他想知道，卡姆是否能将“恨意”这种柴油般的燃料，与一些更积极的能量（比如对成就的接纳和喜悦）结合起来，形成一种混合动力。他猜测，对卡姆而言，学会自我肯定，可能比跑250英里还要困难。卡姆也承认，即使受伤，他也会因为对赞助商、赛事方和粉丝的责任感而坚持比赛，无法轻易放弃。

克里斯提及卡姆即将成为祖父（坦纳的孩子即将出生），并好奇祖父的身份会给卡姆带来怎样的变化。卡姆也觉得，如今他的社会经济地位与孩子们出生时已截然不同，或许他对待孙辈的方式也会有所不同。克里斯问卡姆，成功是否扭曲了他最初的使命。卡姆回答说，他总是关注那些负面评价，所以从不觉得自己成功过。他始终认为自己本质上只是个“工人”，只不过现在的工作形式从在水电公司挖沟铺设水管，变成了跑步、举重和做播客，但内核都是一样的“工作”。

在访谈的尾声，卡姆介绍了他的新书《Undeniable》，这本书将在他参加250英里比赛期间发行。他希望这次能冲击《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜的第一名（上一本书《Endure》曾达到第七名）。克里斯则表示，他非常欣赏卡姆和他的作品，并感谢卡姆的到来。

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Edit:2025.05.17

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